Vindictive, fair DMing, or is 3.5 too Lethal ??

[Kid Charlemagne]

As the Half-Giant in the last campaign I played in found out, when you look immensely tough, you tend to attract a lot of attention. When you charge into a situation, and the enemy has the chance to divide you from your support, that's a good tactic.

From a purely tactical POV, concentrating fire on one target is absolutely the way to go, especially in D&D. Your enemy is just as dangerous at 1 HP as at 100 HP, so if you can take one out entirely, your danger level ratchets down similarly. So the tactic is valid, if sometimes not all that much fun sometimes. On the other hand, it could be that the DM threw all that at your PC because your PC was the only one who could survive it. In these situations, the responsiblity goes to the player to move their PC out of dangers way; you can't count on the DM to decide to switch targets just because you're wilting. Charging into combat while down -5 CON might not be the best idea either...

The challenge seems tough - but as others have mentioned, its not easy to judge how tough because of the house rules involved. How much did you know about the situation before going in? How did you know the wizard was CE, for example; some intelligence must have been gathered. And lastly, have you played with this DM long; is this a constant tendency, or a sudden and unusual turn of events?

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

I guess I would have to know more about the GM but here are my initial thoughts - a series of unfortunate events (tm) came to pass for you. I mean, I really don't think that the whole thing was a screw job from the GM (though you probably know him better than me) and I doubt it is a function of the system. 10th level characters are pretty hardy fellows.

 

[Lord Judas]

Leathality in D&D is almost 100% the province of the DM, regardless of version. You could bring down any character in 1E as easy as 3.X by simply choosing something well beyond a char's capabilities or simply railroading them somehow. The DM isnt a god, they hold the gods on puppet strings and can always off you if they want.

Without danger, there is no game. That being said, it sounds like this encounter was 1)Way too hard, or 2) actually and "in game cinematic" where the wizard was supposed to give a speech or something and you "did something the DM didnt expect", so he reacted as the evil wizard would have. At your level, getting a Raise or Ressurect shouldnt be impossible I would think.

 

[el-remmen]

It seems to me from your description that you felt that your characters should be able to defeat the foes so instead of taking the time to get a handle on the situation you rushed in and thus got cut off.

It is a tactic that works, and high level opponents would certainly try to take advantage of such a foolish move - or work to make such a move happen (as is detailed in my most current story hour installment).

It certainly seems like things did not happen in the idea way for your PCs - but you really cannot know what factors existed outside of your character's sphere of knowledge or observation.

When it comes down to it you have to trust that your GM is being fair, or if he is not being fair that he is doing so at the correct time that makes sense - Essentially this is a gut feeling that cannot be quantified no matter how much you look at rules, average damage or EL - you just know if it is the kind of game you will enjoy or not.


When you jump in the door to block the enemies from getting to the rest of your companions - death is an honorable and not a wholly unexpected thing.

 

[carpedavid]

I've seen a number of people suggest that the EL for the encounter is too high. However, not every encounter is designed to be overcome by combat. Just as in real life, some things are simply too powerful to defeat. Through experience, in general and with a particular gaming group, you'll figure out how to tell what those things are.

This part, though, I think is most telling is the following:

However, upto this point we hadn't encountered anything that was totally beyond us. When he fisrt stated that we should stop the attack on his cavern it was done through a Simulacrum. There was no knowledge of the power behind the door.

This suggests to me that when you feel you *can* kill something, you don't stop to think whether you *should*. Remember: many things that you can kill are simply minions of something you can't kill.

Other than that, it sounds about like the way it'd go if I did it. It's certainly not a 3.5 problem - in fact, the CR/EL system of 3.5 had helped me avoid killing characters more often than I used to.

 

[Treebore]

As for the encounter, you got outmaneuvered and the better character won. What do you expect should happen when you put yourself out front and then get cut off to face a character the whole party would have a tough time beating?

The way you sound the DM should have said,"Oh wait, that was incredibly smart and mean of me to intelligently play my powerful wizard NPC, lets back up the encounter and lets do it all over again. I promise to play him stupid this time."

As for the campaign I would have to know a whole lot more, and more than one side of the story, before I would say anything about that.

 

[fusangite]

Sumi,

Can you please clarify the following:

AC 40 or AC 8 and damage resistance 33 (house rule),

The first failed as my expansion and animal affinity gave me strength 30.

With a cloak of protection +4 I was given some chance.

These seem to pertain to house rules I don't get.

From a first reading of your post, the problem, if any, does not originate in the rules.

 

[mythusmage]

You ran into something you couldn't handle. It happens. Sometimes you survive, sometimes you don't. If you don't you roll up a new character and you learn from the last time.

Now, was it a straight forward exchange of blows, or did you try any tricks or strategems? As currently written the D&D combat system actively discourages tricks. (That's been my experience.) I recommend picking up a copy of Mike Mearl's Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc Press) and reading up on the various combat maneuvers. Tons of neat ideas on how to disable, confuse, discomfit, discomfort, bollix, and/or mess up one's opponents. Such as, say, an attack to disable which takes out one opponent's left leg, forcing him to stumble into his buddies and making them fall all over themselves.

Combat is not where you show what a good sport you are, combat is where you win.

 

[frankthedm]

As the major fighter (10th level Half Dragon Psionic warrior)

A 13th level character that is behind 2 levels on HP in exchange for a 6d8 breath attack and +4 to hit and damage.

I went rushing to the door to block off the enemy from entering the room.

Risky depending on how far you have to move from the party. Plus this says, "Wizard, I am coming for you"

In front of me were 4 ice golems. Extremely tough as they have an AC 40 or AC 8 and damage resistance 33 (house rule), 2 attacks averaging about 17 points of damage and about 100 hp. How I have damage resistance 15, so I thought that as I had expanded and was blocking the door I could give the other party members the time to think of how to deal with the Wizard who was behind the ice golems.

Big mistake thinking D&D is a video game where the monsters only hurt you by getting through your armor. Trip, Disarm and Grapple are there for this reasons. Though those are WEIRD stats, How did you figure those out?

The party level is from 10-12 averaging at 11th. So the challenge rating is off the scale in the DMG.

I have to question your math here, YOU are a 13th level character. If you are not including your own ECL, are you also forgeting other PC's ECLs? Those do count for challenge rating. And how many PCs are in your group?

Into the prismatic wall. The save DC was 24. How at 10th level the base saves for a Psionic warrior are +7 Fort, +3 Reflex/Will. With a cloak of protection +4 I was given some chance. Faint. I managed to save against 1 effect, being turned to stone - fortitude.

Pretty much instant death. No chance of surrender nor of escape

You use your stat modified saves to roll saving throws, not your base saves.

The room the ice golems was in held the wizard right? Then I think your sucky will save should have saved your life [and if you knew what the spell could do, voluntarily fail that will save]. The rules relatively clearly indicate the 7th layer is closest to the wizard since it is the last to effect attacks and attackers aimed at the wizard.

Prismatic Wall
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect:Wall 4 ft./level wide, 2 ft./level high
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: See text
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall—a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack. The wall flashes with seven colors, each of which has a distinct power and purpose. The wall is immobile, and you can pass through and remain near the wall without harm. However, any other creature with less than 8 HD that is within 20 feet of the wall is blinded for 2d4 rounds by the colors if it looks at the wall.
The wall’s maximum proportions are 4 feet wide per caster level and 2 feet high per caster level. A prismatic wall spell cast to materialize in a space occupied by a creature is disrupted, and the spell is wasted.
Each color in the wall has a special effect. The accompanying table shows the seven colors of the wall, the order in which they appear, their effects on creatures trying to attack you or pass through the wall, and the magic needed to negate each color.
The wall can be destroyed, color by color, in consecutive order, by various magical effects; however, the first color must be brought down before the second can be affected, and so on. A rod of cancellation or a mage’s disjunction spell destroys a prismatic wall, but an antimagic field fails to penetrate it. Dispel magic and greater dispel magic cannot dispel the wall or anything beyond it. Spell resistance is effective against a prismatic wall, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present.
Prismatic wall can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Color Order Effect of Color Negated By
Red 1st Stops nonmagical ranged weapons.
Deals 20 points of fire damage (Reflex half). Cone of cold
Orange 2nd Stops magical ranged weapons.
Deals 40 points of acid damage (Reflex half). Gust of wind
Yellow 3rd Stops poisons, gases, and petrification.
Deals 80 points of electricity damage (Reflex half). Disintegrate
Green 4th Stops breath weapons.
Poison (Kills; Fortitude partial for 1d6 points of Con damage instead). Passwall
Blue 5th Stops divination and mental attacks.
Turned to stone (Fortitude negates). Magic missile
Indigo 6th Stops all spells.
Will save or become insane (as insanity spell). Daylight
Violet 7th Energy field destroys all objects and effects.1
Creatures sent to another plane (Will negates).
Dispel magic
1 The violet effect makes the special effects of the other six colors redundant, but these six effects are included here because certain magic items can create prismatic effects one color at a time, and spell resistance might render some colors ineffective (see above).

The DM through the wizard, said the party was foolish and we should have talked. However, upto this point we hadn't encountered anything that was totally beyond us. When he fisrt stated that we should stop the attack on his cavern it was done through a Simulacrum. There was no knowledge of the power behind the door.

No knowledge? No one used even a simple Augury or other divinations? Then tough.
He had his own cavern complex-warning 1, Simulacrum-warning 2.

The party is pretty much good, my character being LG and the wizard Chaotic evil. He then preceeded to tell the party that he would only deal with the party if it showed more sense in future and fulfilled a task for him. He then let the party leave to complete this task for him.

Vindictive?? Do you as DM's kill a party member, by cutting them of from the rest of the group. Then stop the fight and then continue along the plot line you hoped they would follow?

You rushed in his direction and attacked his guardians. He used his spells and minions effectively. Did the party also take hostile actions the first rounds? Were they interested in the wizards parlay? Did they sell you out after you died, saying your actions were yours alone? Players fight to keep from having to make new characters, NPCs fight for their lives and souls.

Vindictive?? That before that a wand of constitution drain (1d6) through ranged touch attack was always aimed at the same party member. (it just happened to be me by the way). I was lucky I only lost 5 Con. That I was in the area when the Wizard unleashed a Maximised fireball and quickened fireball. Save DC 21. Total damage 150+. I made both saves this time rolling a 15 and 17. Also I had Fire resistance 30.

Or is this sensible DMing. Making sure that the party is not killed. That the NPC's will go for the biggest creature. Take out the biggest threat. Make sure one member is killed and the party will learn from there mistakes.

Con drain is used on tanks to make their HP manageable with area effect spells.

Players fight to keep from having to make new characters in a game world, NPCs fight for their lives and souls in a world that is very real to them.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The Wizard is 16th. Now by reckoning the challengE rating of the ice golems would be about 11. This made the El about 20. If I am wrong please correct me. The party level is from 10-12 averaging at 11th. So the challenge rating is off the scale in the DMG.

Actually, 4 CR11s are a CR15, CR15+CR16=CR17. Your psion10/halfdragon has an ECL so he's actually 13th. If the rest of the party has ECLs and averages 13 then that was a "challenging, high risk" encounter from the DMG but suitable for a boss/master villain. I throw similar challenges at my party when it's time for them to earn their pay.

Not that it made any difference. The Wizards command for his Ice golems was bull rush. The first failed as my expansion and animal affinity gave me strength 30. The second rolled 26 on his strength check. I rolled a total of 20. Into the prismatic wall. The save DC was 24. How at 10th level the base saves for a Psionic warrior are +7 Fort, +3 Reflex/Will. With a cloak of protection +4 I was given some chance. Faint. I managed to save against 1 effect, being turned to stone - fortitude.

As others have stated, your saves are higher. +7/+3/+3 plus the +4/+4/+4 from the cloak plus your con bonus/dex bonus/wisdom bonus. He had the spell and it's an excellent spell; it intimidates the bejeezus out of the rest of the party, provides defense, and it took you out.

When he fisrt stated that we should stop the attack on his cavern it was done through a Simulacrum. There was no knowledge of the power behind the door.

Simulacrum is a 7th level spell. If he can throw that he can toss a Prismatic Spray. The party caster should have immediately raised the "holy crap, that can suck!" flag.

The DM through the wizard, said the party was foolish and we should have talked. ...
The party is pretty much good, my character being LG and the wizard Chaotic evil. He then preceeded to tell the party that he would only deal with the party if it showed more sense in future and fulfilled a task for him. He then let the party leave to complete this task for him.

Vindictive?? Do you as DM's kill a party member, by cutting them of from the rest of the group. Then stop the fight and then continue along the plot line you hoped they would follow?

Well....yeah! His only other option was to continue the assault and kill the rest of the party. His wizard was inconvenienced by your PCs and now he's going to make you pay for being pains. You've basically been spanked for being unruly children running around someone else's house.

Vindictive?? That before that a wand of constitution drain (1d6) through ranged touch attack was always aimed at the same party member. (it just happened to be me by the way). I was lucky I only lost 5 Con. That I was in the area when the Wizard unleashed a Maximised fireball and quickened fireball. Save DC 21. Total damage 150+. I made both saves this time rolling a 15 and 17. Also I had Fire resistance 30.

You were in the door, you were still standing. IMC the party trades off who has to be the punching bag. The fighter, monk, paladin, and rogue change places taking blows while the cleric fires off Heal spells.

As far as abusing one person, if you volunteer to be the punching bag (say by leaping into a doorway) then you get to enjoy the experience. In one fight the monk lost 10 stat points, got a Greater Restoration and lost another 6 stat points before the fight ended. Why? he kept grappling the energy-draining monster to lower it's AC enough that the rest of the party could kill it.

Or is this sensible DMing. Making sure that the party is not killed. That the NPC's will go for the biggest creature. Take out the biggest threat. Make sure one member is killed and the party will learn from there mistakes.

Yup, that's it. IMC the ogre got attacked a lot because he seemed like the biggest threat. If the fight lasted long enough the bad guys would realize the human fighter was the most dangerous one and dogpile on him. If they thought he was too dangerous, they'd kill other PCs to make escape routes.

As far as the rest goes, there's a balancing act. Your DM did not slaughter the entire party, though it sounds like he could have. He did not, for instance, fire off a SunBurst and possibly blind the entire party. He did not Mass Charm the entire group.

He instead taught the party a lesson, via your corpse and furthered the plot. Your PC will return and you will either have a better view of how this DM runs a game or you will die again and again and again. On the plus side, that's trauma the rest of the party won't have to deal with.