Vindictive, fair DMing, or is 3.5 too Lethal ??

"My problems start where the smarter bears and the dumber visitors intersect" -Steve Thompson, Yosemite Park official.

It sounds to me like you ran into an encounter with an obviously powerful and intelligent foe with plenty of resources at his beck and call. Faced with such an opponent, you made a very poor tactical decision. Your gamble failed to pay off, and the consequence was an untimely death, as is to be expected in such heroic circumstances.

Perhaps a better choice would have been to stay inside the room, barricade the door with magic, if possible, and let the Bad Guys come to you. Instead, you, with undoubtedly the most intimidating-looking character in the party (A 12 foot tall half-dragon swinging around a 12 foot long sword!), rushed forward to make yourself a target. You admit that you were purposefully blocking the doorway with your character; the Bad Guys would have to go through you to get to anyone else.

What did you expect the Bad Guys to do? Yell out, "Red Rover! Red Rover! Send the halfling on over!"?
 

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Yeah, I have to agree, at least part of this death was suicide.

Next time be a bit more cautious, you were 'heroic' where you shpuld have been 'diplomatic'. Wizards who toss off 7th level spells are not to be trifled with, and he had minions.

As far as I can make out, you were the one who cut yourself off from the party, the critters just took advantage of it.

I can't help but wonder how the DM felt, I have killed off entire parties as the PCs pull stupid move after stupid move, and all I can do is either dumb the critters down or watch the PCs die. *EDIT* Generally I watch them die. They are the ones who tried to swim the Rhine without having the swim skill... Though that wasn't a TPK, the only one who didn't try to swim across was also the only one who had the swim skill.

It doesn't feel good, I can tell you that. More like seeing an auto accident as it happens, but you can't stop it. I read a letter from a bus driver to Ann Landers once, asking people to please not commit suicide by jumping in front of a bus, it always comes to mind when stuff like this happens.

The Auld Grump
 
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kigmatzomat said:
...Your PC will return....

I don't think so, If the character was dead when he hit the purple layer...

The player failed the save for his corpse and went away to an undetermined plane.

OR

1. His body is an object and is destroyed without save
2. His magic items get will saves [their own low saves] or are destroyed. Those that made the save pop out the other side.
 

kigmatzomat said:
...Your PC will return....

frankthedm said:
I don't think so, If the character was dead when he hit the purple layer...

The player failed the save for his corpse and went away to an undetermined plane.

Yah, he may have had his gear anhiliated/planeshifted but the party should be able to afford a True Res, Wish, or Warp Reality to bring him back. Limited Wish might be enough to get his body & gear back (if done quickly) so a regular Res can be used. I'm not up on all the subtle uses of Wishes though.

They might be in hock to someone for a while but it's not outside a reasonable scope. The party is supposed to be good aligned and if they have a cleric it shouldn't be too difficult to petition for a lawful good party member to be Ressed
 

In answer to some of your questions

1. The charge across the room put me 5' in front of the druid and 10' in front of the monk characters who had just retreated from the door. If the Wizard had put the prismatic wall 10' behind me he would have trapped 3 characters.

2. I do not see how you see that saving throws of +7 against DC 24's is a fair chance at this level. 20% pass rate. If you think they are good odds then you are exceptionally lucky.

3. When I was attacked by the wand, fireball etc I was at the other end of the room, taking on another ice golem.

4. The warning was that the Simulacrum said surrender and stop the fighting. Would you stop fighting if you were getting the upper hand on two ice golem creatures and a simulacrum with a wand. I do not think so. The last ice golem died because of the 150+ points of damage from the fireball. All the information that we received was that the Wizard was about 14th. Plus if we were playing the game properly we would not know the power of the Wizard as we had no spell casters to tell us the level of his spells.

5. The Half dragon was only 12th because there are aspects of the template that are not per the MM. The rest of the party consisted of a 12th human 'rogue'; 11th level dwarf fighter, 10th level human druid and a 9th level half dragon monk. There was no spell casters as the 11th level wizard and 11th level cleric did not turn up. So would you have chatted for the evening and had a few cups of tea and turned up next week when you had a decent party or would you expect the DM to modify his adventure to take in the change in party.

6. As a fighter then would you choose to see what happened at the back of the party or seek to protect the party so that an assessment could be made of the situation. True most heroes end up dead. My view was when the wall went up and you have a trapped the character why not say surrender. If I continued then I should die. Not kill one then move on with the conversation.

7. I am also not a fool when it comes to negotiating my way through the Dungeon. The scheme was not to defeat this Wizard but to steal an Orb of Dragonkind from a White Great Wyrm. The party is not gung-ho. We were trying to take out some of his minions in small caverns. We had already defeated the 17th level barbarian and a Barbarian Ettin. We wanted to anger the Wyrm to come away from his horde and then get the rogue to get the orb. Therefore, I/we did not expect to have a conversation with a Chaotic Evil Wizard. However, it now seems that he wants to help him get some components so he will help us???
Everybody in the world would have seen that coming. Hence why we should have stopped attacking in the middle of the fight and said lets talk. The wizard never said a word nor entered the room.

8. Yes in AD&D 1 a 16th level Wizard is very dangerous, however, he can not maximise, nor quicken spells. Yes, he had the option of a delayed blast fireball, but that is still one spell a round. I also never got to the stage where I was fighting against levelled Ettins. It was dangerous against normal ones. Plus you did not have saves against massive damage as not many creatures did 25 points of damage a hit.

9. The house rule we started was to make Armour worth while. At this level it soes not matter what your armour class is you always seemed to get hit. In trapsing the snowy wastes my character had his plate on. Slowed the party down. Got cold. In the fight got hit every time AC26. Plate +3, Natural Armour +4 Dex +1. Took his armour off to speed the journey, got hit everytime. No point to armour when most creatures we were fighting had +20 to hit.
Therefore we took Armour out of the AC and left it to just Dex, rings of protection a few other things. The Plate armour went toward reducing the amount of damage the character suffered. Plate reduced the damage received by +11, Natural Armour +4. So if I was hit for 24 points of damage, then I only took 9 points. Criticals get through and all damage is subtracted from hit points. Finese weapons were like normal. You had to beat the AC of Armour, dex etc put together. This is why the normal AC for the Ice golems was 40. Therefore, you had to beat AC 40 to hit these creatures with finese weapons. Normal fighters had to beat AC8. However, the damage knocked off for natural armour was 32. This meant that the fighter had to do 33 points of damage so that the Ice golem received 1 point of damage. As a construct they could not be criticalled. Useful that. This meant the fights lasted a bit longer and armour plays a sensible part. Also power attack becomes very useful.
This meant that in this fight the 'Rogue', Monk and the Druid were basically useless as they could not do much damage and had run out of fire type spells they could use when the golems were in combat. They took on the Simulaculum and destroyed it.
10. This meant that when the Wizard had walked throught the door I had taken about 4 damage from 107 hit points. Well worth surrendering in that position. The fire ball reduced a few more, but I did have fire resistance. I still did not see the situation. Now I agre the DM was playing a well organised bad guy. However, If I ran for most of you, I could kill you every encounter. That is because I would know your armour class, hit points, feats, skills etc. Going back too to the previous campaign when it was TPK. The last character had a very large AC and was a fighter that specialised in spring attack - the Cleric in this case had a wand that removed constitution 1d6 - sounds familiar. The fighter did not use ranged weapons - so the cleric flew and attacked him with the wand. No save, ranged touch attack. The cleric was recieving 1d8 points of damage from an arrow. Fighter dead. It is amazing how many different spells and monsters out there seem to know your weaknesses.
 

Piratecat said:
If you got a chance to talk to a simulacrum first, that IS a warning. It's a warning that you're facing someone powerful enough to cast a 7th level spell. If the simulacrum started by talking instead of attacking, that's another big clue -- and if you responded by attacking and destroying the simulacrum, I'd say you might have gotten off easy. :)


He talked as he attacked with the wand - the party and there were 4 others in the party, are not that dumb. We have combined age in gaming terms of over 100 years. We do not miss obvious hints. Otherwise we die. And we do not like to die. :)
 

sumi said:
...- the Cleric in this case had a wand that removed constitution 1d6 - sounds familiar. The fighter did not use ranged weapons - so the cleric flew and attacked him with the wand. No save, ranged touch attack. The cleric was recieving 1d8 points of damage from an arrow. Fighter dead. It is amazing how many different spells and monsters out there seem to know your weaknesses.


sounds like this tactic would've worked against any of the party. or a lot of different characters for that matter. so it wasn't just your weakness he was exploiting but sound tactical use of his resources.. namely his wand and being able to take some damage from potential ranged attacks from the party.





as for the half-dragon... there are always bigger and better fish. just b/c you were wiping the floor with the ice golems and the simalcrum doesn't mean it is all going to be a cakewalk.

you should've been more cautious. or at least heeded the advice a little more from the bodydouble.

without a mage with a boom stick .. aka big fireball or other explosion range spell... it is hard to get your advantage on someone else's home turf.

and why would the wizard want to face 3 of you when he only had to face 1 ? makes sense to make an example of the hero...high hp possible high cha guy....
 

sumi said:
4. The warning was that the Simulacrum said surrender and stop the fighting. Would you stop fighting if you were getting the upper hand on two ice golem creatures and a simulacrum with a wand. I do not think so.

I wouldn't -- but I also wouldn't complain when the wizard showed up and killed my character. What did you expect him to do, say "Thanks for killing that pesky simulacrum! Here, have a bag of gold"? :) Seriously, I appreciate your frustration, but I think you may be railing against a normal and expected result of how you handled the situation.

There was no spell casters as the 11th level wizard and 11th level cleric did not turn up. So would you have chatted for the evening and had a few cups of tea and turned up next week when you had a decent party or would you expect the DM to modify his adventure to take in the change in party.

I would have run the adventure as is, maybe reducing the difficulty a little. The thing is, it doesn't sound like your death has anything to do with the absence of the spellcasters; it sounds like you got cut off by your own tactical error (rushing the door, which was certainly heroic as well!) and were killed by good NPC tactics. Based on your description, I'm unclear how the missing players could have helped you once that prismatic wall went up.

As the DM, I certainly wouldn't have captured three PCs on the near side of the wall; better tactics for a genius lvl wizard to take out one at a time. My impression is that you bit off more than you could chew. It happens.

The scheme was not to defeat this Wizard but to steal an Orb of Dragonkind from a White Great Wyrm. The party is not gung-ho. We were trying to take out some of his minions in small caverns.

*blink* You were were planning on baiting a great white wyrm into combat, and you only got killed by a wizard? You got lucky.
 
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sumi said:
There was no spell casters as the 11th level wizard and 11th level cleric did not turn up. So would you have chatted for the evening and had a few cups of tea and turned up next week when you had a decent party or would you expect the DM to modify his adventure to take in the change in party.

I'd ask the DM to run the two spellcasters as NPCs or allow other players to do that. Many DMs aren't as good at adapting/modifying their planned adventures on the fly as would be ideal.
 

Despite your combined years in age and gaming wisdom, and the task at hand, this one instance still comes off as simply a bad choice at the wrong time, and not any kind of DM vindictiveness. Your party was close, yes, but at the end of the day, charging in front of the door first was simply not good tactics or wise. And I think the DM responded appropriately in that instance.

Mind you, I don't think you're a fool or that your fellow players are inexperienced. And I certainly do not wish to insult you. But the scenario provided still seems to me a small lapse in judgment that ended up costing the life of a character. Even if this situation were unavoidable, I think the DM reaction was appropriate. You take on a grand quest to get something in the middle of enemy territory, bad things are bound to happen.
 

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