D&D 5E Vision and Distance: Noticing the Concealed and the Unconcealed

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. One thing 3E had that I've missed since then were range increments. Sure, ranged weapons have a "short range" and a "long range", but we don't have anything like that on vision anymore. 3E had a rule that stated "Spot/Listen checks suffer a -1 penalty for every 10 ft distance". While this calculation doesn't seem accurate (more on that later), it gives us a place to start for determining how far away something needs to be before we can't see or hear it. Sort of. "Dude standing in an open field" didn't really have a Spot DC, IIRC. But making them wouldn't be too difficult.

So, barring obstructions, how far away would something need to be before you can't notice it? What about before you can't notice details about it? In researching for this, I found that 2 miles is about the limit for being able to notice a human-sized object as an object and not just a point of light (beyond that distance, for instance, headlights on a car just look like 1 point, but closer you can see them as two lights). This is 1 arc second. We actually perceive Venus to be an object and not a point of light because it's about this size (again, based on the articles I read for this).

When an object is twice as far away as another object of the same size, it appears half the size. Mutants and Masterminds has a "Ranks and Measures" table that utilizes this type of scaling, though they fudge it so it looks nicer (1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100 ...). Something like that in D&D5 might be too complicated, but, some basic DCs and a point at which you start taking disadvantage on Perception checks wouldn't be out of the question.

Do you have any thoughts on this? I know I'm just in the spitballing phase here, but I wanted to share my thoughts. Do you think 5E should have some type of visual distance range? The Eagle Totem Barbarian already doubles a nonexistent distance range ...

 

[Shiroiken]

I'm pretty sure it's left up the DM on purpose. Most games aren't going to need that kind of detail, and the DM can simply set the DC to notice something (or notice details on it), plus grant Disadvantage if conditions warrant it. For contested rolls (such as Perception vs. Stealth), I'd suggest using Disadvantage for anything outside of the immediate area (maybe 50-100 feet). You could instead grant a bonus like 3E did, but it gets too fiddly fast.

As for the Eagle Totem, I've just allowed the character to see things normal people can't make out yet. The practical result of this is that he gets to roll Perception first (or I check my roll against his passive), allowing a potential early warning.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm pretty sure it's left up the DM on purpose.

I'm pretty sure the purpose was "so the designers have less work to do that involves numbers".

Most games aren't going to need that kind of detail, and the DM can simply set the DC to notice something (or notice details on it).

Most games can get away with the DM picking literally any number, and since the players will never know what it is, it will never matter.

If the DM actually cares about setting DCs that make sense then he's on his own. And heaven forbid he might want to rely on skills to indicate how different types of dungeon denizens respond to intruders...

 

[Terry Herc]

5th edition is less hard coded than previous editions. The aim is that the DM should be able to use the rules as a solid ground, but feel confident to make judgement based on the flavour of the session, the characters involved, and the pace of the game.

Xeviat, if you are interested in hard numbers, then the research you have done gives you a good indicator of what might make good DCs. Someone 2 miles away could be a DC 28 to spot, and depending on the circumstances you might add disadvantage as well. At each quarter mile I would suggest dropping 1 off the DC until they are essentially on them. Other factors might award advantage or disadvantage, like the terrain or the number of targets, a light source, fast motion, and so forth.

Hope this helps,

-Terry

 

[CapnZapp]

Since most groups will feature at least one high-Wisdom character, and since it is trivial to get Perception proficiency if you want it (and you do), the reality is that any monster must beat a passive Perception score of DC 16.

This is far too lenient on the heroes - few critters will ever manage to ambush them, and then only if it's a solitary monster: the law of averages mean groups *will* fail.

This means the default Perception rules make the game run on Easy Mode.

 

[Li Shenron]

Hi everyone. One thing 3E had that I've missed since then were range increments. Sure, ranged weapons have a "short range" and a "long range", but we don't have anything like that on vision anymore. 3E had a rule that stated "Spot/Listen checks suffer a -1 penalty for every 10 ft distance". While this calculation doesn't seem accurate (more on that later), it gives us a place to start for determining how far away something needs to be before we can't see or hear it. Sort of. "Dude standing in an open field" didn't really have a Spot DC, IIRC. But making them wouldn't be too difficult.

...

Do you have any thoughts on this? I know I'm just in the spitballing phase here, but I wanted to share my thoughts. Do you think 5E should have some type of visual distance range? The Eagle Totem Barbarian already doubles a nonexistent distance range ...

I prefer to adjust the DC rather than adding disadvantage, for two reasons:

- changes to DC are invisible to players (which means faster play, less arguments, more intuitive approach, and no need to stay always consistent if you change your mind)

- (dis)advantage has more repercussions than merely changing the probabilities (e.g. it interacts with other sources of (dis)advantage and it with lots of character abilities)

That's not saying you should never use (dis)advantage... just that for something so "linear" as the effect of distance, I'd use a mostly linear mechanical representation such as increasing/decreasing DC by single points.

 

[Kalshane]

Since most groups will feature at least one high-Wisdom character, and since it is trivial to get Perception proficiency if you want it (and you do), the reality is that any monster must beat a passive Perception score of DC 16.

This is far too lenient on the heroes - few critters will ever manage to ambush them, and then only if it's a solitary monster: the law of averages mean groups *will* fail.

This means the default Perception rules make the game run on Easy Mode.

If the monsters are setting up an ambush ahead of time, do their Stealth checks as a group check with a DC equal to the highest passive perception in the party. If the majority succeed, they managed to get the group hidden well enough as a whole to prevent detection.

 

[CapnZapp]

If the monsters are setting up an ambush ahead of time, do their Stealth checks as a group check with a DC equal to the highest passive perception in the party. If the majority succeed, they managed to get the group hidden well enough as a whole to prevent detection.

How about instead reapplying distance modifiers as discussed here.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Well, you'd have to come up with more than just distance. I mean, if you are going to 'detail' distance modifiers you should also factor in a few other things. Like any head gear the person it wearing. And maybe add a new stat to the game like "Hearing"...while we're at it, might as well add "Sight", "Olfactory" and "Taste" (for the future). So, Distance, Head gear and environmental conditions. Hmmm.... Environmental Conditions is a bit vague. Better break that up into Humidity, Air Pressure, and Noise Effect (which we'd need a list like Wind [Very Strong, Strong, Brisk, Breeze]). I guess we need some sort of 'echo' or 'reverberation' modifiers too...shouting to someone while on a flat, sandy desert is a LOT less likely to be effective than shouting down a canyon at someone.

Oh, almost forgot, we need modifiers for: Terrain Substance, Footwear, Clothing Type, Clothing Layers, Outside Noise Factors (like chirping birds or crickets, creaking trees, general conversations by passers by, etc), Wakefulness, Sound Pitch (which should be a sub-ability for the new Hearing stat...some people hear higher/lower pitch sounds), and probably a dozen or two others I'm forgetting right now.

There. NOW we can have a more 'realistic' Hearing/Perception system. Should make the game run so-o much more smoothly now by nixing all player and DM input.



...
...
...

Yeah, sarcasm. As soon as you start adding in "distance" (or other such "details") for deciding modifiers in the game, you are stepping on a very very slippery slope my friend. When do you stop? Just with Distance? What about if it's raining or foggy? What about a thief trying to walk on cobblestone vs fresh turned earth? Stone floor? Wooden floor? Birds chirping or crickets? What about other people in the area just doing their stuff...talking, hammering on an anvil, cooking food? As I said...slippery slope.

5e isn't built like that. It's built with "You're the DM, grow a pair and start f'ing DM'ing!" (although in not such forceful words...). There's a reason why TTRPG's will trump Computer RPG's every single time in this regard. A human brain, especially one with experience in such matters (re: an experienced DM...which takes time to accumulate, not simply the accumulation of books/articles/etc). A human DM can think "It's evening, people are closing up shop and talking, walking, etc...slight breeze, more horses to pull carts, cobblestone streets but close-packed buildings....about 60'....say....DC 18 to pick out one particular voice". WAAAAAAY faster than flipping through a dozen charts and calculating bonuses and penalties. And, as someone above said...the players will likely never know the DC anyway, so no matter to them, in the overall scheme of things.

If you really feel you MUST have something for distance, make it BIG distances; like, 0-30' = no adjustment, then -1 per 30'. Easier to handle smaller numbers with wider ranges, imho.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Since most groups will feature at least one high-Wisdom character, and since it is trivial to get Perception proficiency if you want it (and you do), the reality is that any monster must beat a passive Perception score of DC 16.

This is far too lenient on the heroes - few critters will ever manage to ambush them, and then only if it's a solitary monster: the law of averages mean groups *will* fail.

This means the default Perception rules make the game run on Easy Mode.

Do you really have to post in every single thread to say that 5E is "too easy"?