D&D 5E Vision and Distance: Noticing the Concealed and the Unconcealed

[Xeviat]

If you really feel you MUST have something for distance, make it BIG distances; like, 0-30' = no adjustment, then -1 per 30'. Easier to handle smaller numbers with wider ranges, imho.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Likely it will be something along the order of this. Something twice as far away, cover/concealment not withstanding, is going to be twice as hard to see. I simply have to decide on a distance where someone would even be "hard to see". What's the DC to see someone who isn't trying to hide, anyway? -20? LOL.

 

[cooperjer]

While running an AL game I gave the party a chance to walk beside the skiff. I indicated the terrain had small groups of trees, a few low hills, and was mostly grass land. I knew there was a random encounter coming up that included an ogre.

As the DM with the rules as written I have a choice on how I want to introduce this ogre to the group (2X level 1 char + 1 lvl 3 char + 1 lvl 4 char). I could have the ogre come out of a small patch of woods and charge across the terrain from 800-ft. This would allow the ranged characters to enjoy the encounter. I could have the ogre laying in the tall grass at dusk and then surprise the party as they wondered by. I chose to have the ogre sitting by the river the skiff was on and then "hide" behind a tree. The ogre's hide check was in the single digits, so I described it as hiding behind a 1-ft wide tree on the river bank. I had no need to describe if the ogre was seen from two miles out on the river bank, because the rules do not say I need to.

 

[pming]

Hiay!

Likely it will be something along the order of this. Something twice as far away, cover/concealment not withstanding, is going to be twice as hard to see. I simply have to decide on a distance where someone would even be "hard to see". What's the DC to see someone who isn't trying to hide, anyway? -20? LOL.

If I was to do it (hypothetical here...I'd never do this), "large range increments" would become a flat modifier regardless of other factors...think of it as a "base line" from which I would then add/subtract based on all the other myriad of factors. So I may have 0 - 30 (0) / 60 (-1) / 90 (-2) / 120 (-3) / etc., but then I'd come up with a base line DC too, say "10". So at 80', DC 11. The problem with that is it begs the question....why DC 10 to start? Is that DC 10 for ALL conditions? So a bright sunny day...DC 10. A dark, stormy, blizzard...DC 10. Obviously not. Which leads all the way back to "The DM sets a DC that the players will never know anyway...so why burden yourself with trying to memorize your own house-rule-table-modifiers in the first place?

See the problem with just having 'one' modifier based on range? You'd need a million of them if you have 1. I mean, if you are saying "Oh, you get -2 because of range", but then you're setting the DC for one situation at 10, another at 13, another at 15 and another at 18...what's the point of the modifier? Why not just forgo that all together and save yourself the headache? "Because you are so far away, and it's raining heavily, and you have a cowled cloak on...DC 15 Perception"...it's the same thing as setting that as DC 13 perception, then looking up or figuring out the -2 for range to add to it.

Personally, I use my own method for figuring out a DC for anything. I start at DC 10 for everything. If something is "obviously simple" (as in only 1 'step' is needed to complete a task), I drop it down to DC 5. If something is "obviously complex" (as in at least 2 'steps' needed to complete, along with time and/or equipment), it goes up to DC 15. If there is a minor factor or two either for/against...I modify that base DC by 2. If there is a major factor, modifier of 2, with Adv/Disadv. If major and minor, 5...and maybe with Adv/Disadv. I think I've VERY rarely had a DC get to 20 or higher. Needless to say, most DC's in my games are between 8 and 12, rarely 5 or 15. Pretty much never higher than 17 or 18.

If something is so obtuse that it should be a non-issue...no roll. I just decide yes/no.

Player: "I drop down to the floor to hide!"
DM: "...er...you are in black leather armor, in an empty ballroom, in the middle of the dance floor...with magical lighting from the chandeliers. He sees you".
Player: "Dang! Curse you 4 Wisdom!"
All at Table: LOL!!

No roll for things that don't/shouldn't need a roll. Simple as that.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Xeviat]

It would be more like the 3E skill DC tables. There'd be a base DC (It'd be very low, like 0; 10 is the average for attempting to hide, so 0 would be the base for not attempting to hide). Then there'd be a distance modifier, condition modifiers, and a cover/concealment modifier. It would be helpful for "how close do you get to the wolves who aren't trying to hide before you notice them". It would also help beef up the stealth rules to begin with.

2 miles was what was stated as "maximum distance to see a person", whatever DC that means.

10,000 DC ?
5,000 DC ?
2,500 DC ?
1,000 DC ?
500 DC ?
250 DC ?
100 DC ?
50 DC ?
25 DC ?
10 DC ?

Something like that, with further modifiers for conditions (though Lighting already says that it's disadvantage for low light).

 

[Hriston]

@Xeviat, consistent with your research, DMG p 243 gives 2 miles as the distance you can see on a clear day. It also gives 1 mile as the distance you can see if it's raining, 100 to 300 feet if it's foggy, and if you're at high elevation on a clear day, 40 miles. IMO, it is intended that a creature not heavily obscured or behind an obstruction, and within one of the above visual ranges, is noticed by sight automatically. Likewise for objects that aren't concealed in some way.

Noticing a concealed object will depend on hitting a DC associated with how well the object is hidden. This assumes a certain proximity to the object beyond which it's impossible to notice.

Noticing a creature that's heavily obscured or behind an obstruction depends on hearing or some sense other than sight. For hearing, I use a system of variable audible ranges that comes from one of the published DM screens. Under this system, a creature making a loud noise is automatically noticed at a distance of 2d6 x 50 feet. A creature making moderate noise (i.e. not trying to be stealthy) is automatically noticed at a distance of 2d6 x 10 feet. And a creature that's remaining quiet and trying to be stealthy can be detected from a distance of 2d6 x 5 feet, depending on the result of a DEX (Stealth)/WIS (Perception) contest.

 

[Xeviat]

@Xeviat, consistent with your research, DMG p 243 gives 2 miles as the distance you can see on a clear day. It also gives 1 mile as the distance you can see if it's raining, 100 to 300 feet if it's foggy, and if you're at high elevation on a clear day, 40 miles. IMO, it is intended that a creature not heavily obscured or behind an obstruction, and within one of the above visual ranges, is noticed by sight automatically. Likewise for objects that aren't concealed in some way.

Noticing a concealed object will depend on hitting a DC associated with how well the object is hidden. This assumes a certain proximity to the object beyond which it's impossible to notice.

Noticing a creature that's heavily obscured or behind an obstruction depends on hearing or some sense other than sight. For hearing, I use a system of variable audible ranges that comes from one of the published DM screens. Under this system, a creature making a loud noise is automatically noticed at a distance of 2d6 x 50 feet. A creature making moderate noise (i.e. not trying to be stealthy) is automatically noticed at a distance of 2d6 x 10 feet. And a creature that's remaining quiet and trying to be stealthy can be detected from a distance of 2d6 x 5 feet, depending on the result of a DEX (Stealth)/WIS (Perception) contest.

I didn't notice those in the DMG; it's been a while since I read it from cover to cover.

Since Passive Perception's base 10 is kind of the perception floor, falling into the "automatically noticing something", I can probably create some numbers with all that.