D&D 5E Volo's Guide to Monsters: General Discussion.

[Yunru]

Bwaahahahahaha. That's not an argument dude. All he said was "That's not RAW, but the DM is always free to do whatever they want." You making three replies for every one of his does not an argument make.

Just like your saying 'three replies for every one' doesn't make it true. You attempt to troll someone else.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Just like your saying 'three replies for every one' doesn't make it true. You attempt to troll someone else.

You were the one to make a post saying "suck it JC! I got into a big argument", and clearly that's not true. Me calling out your being untrue does not make me a troll. That exchange wasn't a big argument. It was you trying to make it one, and him saying, "Well, it's not RAW, but do whatever floats your boat." The very nature of an argument requires at least two people. What you posted was not that. Jeremy is pretty mello, especially publicly. That was not an argument, sorry to burst your righteous indignation bubble.

An argument is what you and I are about to get into if we continue this. Luckily I recognize the irony, and will be letting it drop from here on out

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I mentioned this earlier when answering a question about the hobgoblin material. There are a few paragraphs in the hobgoblin description about the Academy of Devastation, which is literally "a hobgoblin institution made up of spellcasters." It also mentions how they focus solely on combat related spells, viewing themselves as mobile artillery.

There is also a monster write up for a hobgoblin devastator. CR4, up to 4th level spellcasting (pretty much all evocation spells), arcane advantage (once per turn, deal an extra 2d6 damage to a creature it hits with a damaging spell attack if that target is within 5ft of an ally) and army arcana (when the hobgoblin casts a spell that causes damage or that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, it can choose itself and any number of allies to be immune to the damage caused by the spell and to succeed on the required saving throw).

And re: the INT bonus, I'll say it again. hobgoblins have always been portrayed as the military arm, focusing on tactical fighting. It makes perfect sense to have high INT for that. Sun Tzu was not an idiot. This notion that only casters or bookworms would have high INT is not only patently false, it's silly. You have to be fairly smart to be a good tactician.

Sounds like Hobgoblins are now 5E's version of Scro, but with a less-silly name.

I've been playing Hobgoblins all along as kind of a cross between Romans and Mongols, but adding in a strong tradition of wizardly magic (a la Eddings' Grolims) can only improve things. I think I'll designate 1-2% of all hobgoblins as magically-talented. That should keep things exciting without straining plausibility.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Parenthetically, I must say that the worst thing about 5E's reliance on Twitter for rules clarifications is that it gives the impression that the DM is supposed to be a rules-lawyer. Half the time, the proper answer to a Twitter rules query should be, "Are you the DM? If so, what do you feel is appropriate?"

 

[flametitan]

I mentioned this earlier when answering a question about the hobgoblin material. There are a few paragraphs in the hobgoblin description about the Academy of Devastation, which is literally "a hobgoblin institution made up of spellcasters." It also mentions how they focus solely on combat related spells, viewing themselves as mobile artillery.

There is also a monster write up for a hobgoblin devastator. CR4, up to 4th level spellcasting (pretty much all evocation spells), arcane advantage (once per turn, deal an extra 2d6 damage to a creature it hits with a damaging spell attack if that target is within 5ft of an ally) and army arcana (when the hobgoblin casts a spell that causes damage or that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, it can choose itself and any number of allies to be immune to the damage caused by the spell and to succeed on the required saving throw).

And re: the INT bonus, I'll say it again. hobgoblins have always been portrayed as the military arm, focusing on tactical fighting. It makes perfect sense to have high INT for that. Sun Tzu was not an idiot. This notion that only casters or bookworms would have high INT is not only patently false, it's silly. You have to be fairly smart to be a good tactician.

I like that hobgoblin wizards are justified in the book. And I agree that an INT bonus is a justified stat increase on a hobgoblin. I do wish they had a little more mechanical incentive to be a battlemaster rather than a wizard, but at least they're as good at being a BM as other races not geared to being a fighter, if not slightly better.

Parenthetically, I must say that the worst thing about 5E's reliance on Twitter for rules clarifications is that it gives the impression that the DM is supposed to be a rules-lawyer. Half the time, the proper answer to a Twitter rules query should be, "Are you the DM? If so, what do you feel is appropriate?"

Indeed. I might ask a rules query to settle a debate on here or reddit, but otherwise the game works fine (if not slightly better) if you just make up things as you go along, and I believe that's intentional. As Tony Vargas would say, 5e helps bring back "DM empowerment".


The main reason I ordered from my "L"GS (for $80 Canadian! ouch) is that they believe they have the possibility of getting the special edition to me, and ship it to my post office, rather than have me drive 2 1/2 hours to get there (and I do not have a driver's license, so any amount of driving makes things very difficult for me). And of course, I really want that spec ed.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Parenthetically, I must say that the worst thing about 5E's reliance on Twitter for rules clarifications is that it gives the impression that the DM is supposed to be a rules-lawyer. Half the time, the proper answer to a Twitter rules query should be, "Are you the DM? If so, what do you feel is appropriate?"

Funny enough, in that twitter "argument" he linked, that's exactly what Jeremy said at least three times, and probably more.

 

[Yunru]

Funny enough, in that twitter "argument" he linked, that's exactly what Jeremy said at least three times, and probably more.

Mhmm. Except he didn't say them addressing my points (except maybe once) way to be truthful there.

 

[Parmandur]

I mentioned this earlier when answering a question about the hobgoblin material. There are a few paragraphs in the hobgoblin description about the Academy of Devastation, which is literally "a hobgoblin institution made up of spellcasters." It also mentions how they focus solely on combat related spells, viewing themselves as mobile artillery.

There is also a monster write up for a hobgoblin devastator. CR4, up to 4th level spellcasting (pretty much all evocation spells), arcane advantage (once per turn, deal an extra 2d6 damage to a creature it hits with a damaging spell attack if that target is within 5ft of an ally) and army arcana (when the hobgoblin casts a spell that causes damage or that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, it can choose itself and any number of allies to be immune to the damage caused by the spell and to succeed on the required saving throw).

And re: the INT bonus, I'll say it again. hobgoblins have always been portrayed as the military arm, focusing on tactical fighting. It makes perfect sense to have high INT for that. Sun Tzu was not an idiot. This notion that only casters or bookworms would have high INT is not only patently false, it's silly. You have to be fairly smart to be a good tactician.

Interesting about Hobgoblins being reflavored as Arcane leaning; kind of how Orcs are now religious fanatics reenacting their mythos...any other cool reflavorings to differentiate humanoids in the boom worth mentioning?

 

[flametitan]

Unrelated, but this is an interesting bit of lore (I mean, it's a standard piece of Yuan-ti Pureblood lore, but it's still a good way of framing how most people would react to it)

http://imgur.com/b2BzPDC

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, the same thing that is wrong with crating a High Elf Barbarian or a Dwarf Wizard... its not what any of the story of what the race is supposed to be good at.

SNIP
Moreover the PHB describes Investigation in such a way that you have to be so damn specific about it-- "I check the bottom of the second drawer of the dresser"-- so that it is rather silly that you are making any sort of check at all, you as a player clearly already know exactly where what your PC is looking for is located that it is utterly impossible for them to miss it. Imagine losing your keys in your house and having to shout out loud precisely every location you will check before you check it and knowing that you need to spend 5 minutes searching each specific location before maybe deciding that they aren't there.

Finally, not only is the race absolute crap, it gets bundled into this group of "monster races"... along with the insanely, brokenly overpowered Bugbear. A category that is absolutely going to immediately get banned from play at all tables at all events, justified simply because it contains insanely, brokenly overpowered races like the Bugbear and whatever else is going to come in the future where they just shrug their shoulders and say "let's just give it all the most powerful combat stuff" and then call it a day.

This is a clear case where the person writing the stats not only failed to be competent, but they made up terminology in order to opt out of competence and excuse themselves for doing so. "Hey, they are just 'monster races' there is no need for them to be remotely balanced or playable because we aren't going to allow anyone to play them anyway"

There is just so much here to talk about… frankly I’m going to snip a lot and talk in generalities, there’s just so much anger I’m not sure going point by point is going to be conducive to a discussion.

Yes, I have done a little homebrewing for that situation. No, not all the things he makes needs to be for combat, but the guy is a combat buff, he loves killing things, so his characters tend to focus on combat. When he tried to convince the Cloud Giant Baroness that his ingenuity was worth betting on, it was an intelligence roll, because ingenuity is best based off intelligence.

It wasn’t a lot of homebrewing, more just expanding the current crafting rules and using the rules and logic in gnomes to figure out which checks they should use. Which, by the way, gnomes are a +2 INT race, and not generally seen as worthless.

And honestly, I think that is what frustrates me about your position. You are dead set that bonuses to Intelligence are worthless. That there is no value, that no one except wizard benefits from having an intelligence higher than 6… and that is just not true. I have found may situations where Intelligence has been a valuable stat. I’ve used History, Religion and Nature significantly to tell people information about the world, information I might not have given them otherwise.

And, just because a lot of people run Investigation incorrectly doesn’t mean it is as useless as you say. Let’s say your team has broken into a shop keep’s office, you want to see if he has any ties to a criminal enterprise. Investigation on the room, maybe investigation on his desk which I mentioned is covered in papers. I don’t think you really need to say you check the third drawer down for a secret compartment, if you are rifling through the desk and roll high enough, I assume you checked that drawer.

And actually, going back and re-reading the PHB, because I don’t remember that 10 minutes to investigate rule, reveals two interesting things. 10 no such rule exists, investigation can be as short or long as the DM wants it to be, and more importantly 2) the high specificity you are talking about in the bolded part is actually referenced in the rules for Perception, the skill you say is quicker and more general and therefore more useful.

Finally, to wrap things up because I have to go and mow the yard now, I think it is incredibly unfair to assume that this race is bad, and that it is bad on purpose, and that it is going to be automatically banned, and all of that was planned by the writers. As we’ve seen repeatedly in reference to Dragonborn and Tieflings, DMs are not only capable, but willing, to selectively ban races they don’t like. So if people consider the bugbear too powerful (which I haven’t heard yet, in fact I’ve heard they aren’t nearly as good as people say they are, because differences of opinion) they will ban the bugbear, not necessarily the Bugbear, Lizardfolk, Hobgoblin, Goblin, Kenku, ect.


The way Hobgoblins are written now, from my perspective, they are always decent warriors. They are always able to use a martial weapon regardless of class, they are tough, and they can adapt to any of the major martial races. And frankly, I don’t think changing that +1 INT to +1 STR or +1 DEX is going to magically make them vastly superior. Because as much as you tout that +1 to hit and damage as being so important… if they end up missing by 1 point, they save face and end up hitting anyways. That bonus is really good, even if it is per short rest, because you can see exactly how high of a bonus you are going to get, so you can choose never to waste it, unlike battle master precision attack or bardic inspiration or bless, which can always roll a 1 and be very unhelpful.