D&D 5E Voluntarily taking lower Initiative?

[Saeviomagy]

So in addition to tracking individual creature initiative, you also now have to track individual spell initiative. Presumably this also means you have to also track individual condition initiative and effect initiative (so no delaying your way out of having to make death saves or saves against other effects, conditions or spells for example).

Seeing as most 5E combats last around 5 rounds and rarely longer than ten rounds, I fail to see how this extra bookeeping is really worth what small advantages it might bring in exchange.

Umm, what bookkeeping? You say "I delay". Any spells you cast (or effects you created) that should end on your turn end now. Any negative effects on you end whenever they should during your delayed turn.

I use the houserule that when you ready an attack action, you get your attack action. So if you're capable of multiple attacks with the attack action, you get them. Thats strikes a fair compromise for mine.

Which still means people relying on a bonus action miss out (ie - dual wield goes from not great to worse), and people who need to move before attacking are in trouble.

 

[Flamestrike]

Umm, what bookkeeping? You say "I delay". Any spells you cast (or effects you created) that should end on your turn end now. Any negative effects on you end whenever they should during your delayed turn.

Nice way to break a hold person. Applying the same logic you can delay your action, make your save at the end of your turn, and if succesful, you take your action immediately 'after your turn ends'.

Remember - when you delay your initiative count changes (otherwise you could delay into the next round and take two turns in a row). So you should have spells ending on 'dead' initiative numbers where the caster has subsequerntly delayed after casting.

Wizard casts spell on initiative count 10 on round 1. It has a duration of three rounds. On round two he delays, taking his new turn on initiative count 15 of the next (third) round (resetting his initiative to this number). When does his spell expire?

Which still means people relying on a bonus action miss out (ie - dual wield goes from not great to worse), and people who need to move before attacking are in trouble.

I dont care. For the extra bookeeping and turn shffling its not worth it.

I played with delay action existing for my first couple of sessions (assuming it was still a rule). Found out they removed it in 5E, started playing it that way and havent looked back.

The game is easier to run and simpler to adjudicate this way. For any fiddly things that only being able to ready an action and not delay a whole turn causes, the advantages in simplicity outweigh these issues.

 

[delericho]

Huh? How do things go at your table?

In the last campaign we played (which happened to be SWSE):

Me: Okay Bob, you're next.
Bob: Umm...
Me: Okay, let me know when you're ready. Moving on...
< Next character acts >
Bob: I'm ready now. < Takes action. >

At which point I move Bob's initiative card to the new point in the turn order, and we move on. The next effect of this is that Bob gradually slips back in the initiative order, roughly one position per round. But over the course of the combat he acts pretty much as often as everyone else - most combats don't last long enough for him to slip right round the order and miss a turn entirely.

 

[Flamestrike]

In the last campaign we played (which happened to be SWSE):

Me: Okay Bob, you're next.
Bob: Umm...
Me: Okay, let me know when you're ready. Moving on...
< Next character acts >
Bob: I'm ready now. < Takes action. >

At which point I move Bob's initiative card to the new point in the turn order, and we move on. The next effect of this is that Bob gradually slips back in the initiative order, roughly one position per round. But over the course of the combat he acts pretty much as often as everyone else - most combats don't last long enough for him to slip right round the order and miss a turn entirely.

Whats causing it?

Is he not paying attention during the rest of the PCs turns and so forth, or just attempting to overanalyse everything and be too optimal?

Sounds like he's afraid of getting it 'wrong'.

 

[delericho]

Whats causing it?

Is he not paying attention during the rest of the PCs turns and so forth, or just attempting to overanalyse everything and be too optimal?

Sounds like he's afraid of getting it 'wrong'.

That's pretty much it.

As I've said up-thread, I'm not really looking for a fix for this issue. Nor, indeed, am I suggesting D&D should do things differently, since I suspect most groups do find this way to be quicker. I was just noting that not every group saw the same benefit.

 

[Flamestrike]

That's pretty much it.

As I've said up-thread, I'm not really looking for a fix for this issue. Nor, indeed, am I suggesting D&D should do things differently, since I suspect most groups do find this way to be quicker. I was just noting that not every group saw the same benefit.

If hes overly optimising or not paying attention that should be corrected or slapped down by the DM IMO.

If he's just 'worried about getting it wrong' then he needs to be told that there is no right or wrong option; he should just look at the battle through the eyes of his character and make a snap decision accordingly. Some times itll be optimal, sometime it wont. Sometimes it wont be optimal intentionally (he may elect to dodge becuase his character is scared, when the optimal thing to do would be wildly different).

If he doesnt declare in three seconds he takes the dodge action. In other words, the only wrong decision is not making a decision within three seconds.

Im extrapolating here, but it sounds like he's playing with a group who are more optimisation savy than him. I usually see this phenomena in this situation. Players hesitaite when they are too scared to make the 'wrong' decision in order to avoid drawing the scorn or dissaproval of the other players (and occasionally from the DM).

If this is the case its a much more serious issue, and I would definately have a chat with him about it.

I could be way off and he could have a serious anxiety disorder though.

 

[delericho]

If hes overly optimising or not paying attention that should be corrected or slapped down by the DM IMO.

If he's just 'worried about getting it wrong' then he needs to be told that there is no right or wrong option; he should just look at the battle through the eyes of his character and make a snap decision accordingly. Some times itll be optimal, sometime it wont. Sometimes it wont be optimal intentionally (he may elect to dodge becuase his character is scared, when the optimal thing to do would be wildly different).

If he doesnt declare in three seconds he takes the dodge action. In other words, the only wrong decision is not making a decision within three seconds.

Im extrapolating here, but it sounds like he's playing with a group who are more optimisation savy than him. I usually see this phenomena in this situation. Players hesitaite when they are too scared to make the 'wrong' decision in order to avoid drawing the scorn or dissaproval of the other players (and occasionally from the DM).

If this is the case its a much more serious issue, and I would definately have a chat with him about it.

I could be way off and he could have a serious anxiety disorder though.

As I said to another poster up-thread, I appreciate the advice, but it's really not helpful. Not everything is a problem to be fixed.

 

[Flamestrike]

As I said to another poster up-thread, I appreciate the advice, but it's really not helpful. Not everything is a problem to be fixed.

Guess I was just saying it could be a problem for the player, even if it's not one for you. If (for example) he's too nervous to declare an action on account of a self held perception that the other players will dissaprove of his choice, then this goes towards something that probably does need to be fixed within the group dynamic. That dynamic is stifling his creativity and a level of his player agency.

If he worries about what others at the table think of him 'if he gets it wrong', thats probably not occuring in a vaccum. He could just be over anxious and jumping at shadows, or there could be an actual group dynamic (or even just percieved by him, which is the same thing) at play here that is making him overly worry (which is never fun) and thus taking so much time.

He could just be a really cautious dude, but he could also be scared of dissaproval from other players, or the group dynamic could be oppressing his choice and freedom to some extent.

I dont want to psychoanalyse the situation that much, Im just speaking from experience in my own group. I had to encourage our shy/ indecisive player to think quicker (I rewarded in character snap decisions with rewards ranging from inspiration, monsters reacting suboptimally and much more entertainingly, and verbal encouragement), and had to smack down our groups heavy optimiser for over optimising.

Or I could just be overthinking it!

 

[delericho]

Or I could just be overthinking it!

'fraid so!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Nice way to break a hold person. Applying the same logic you can delay your action, make your save at the end of your turn, and if succesful, you take your action immediately 'after your turn ends'.

It's like you are purposefully misunderstanding or ignoring what I wrote. You say "I delay", I say "you are still paralysed".

Remember - when you delay your initiative count changes (otherwise you could delay into the next round and take two turns in a row). So you should have spells ending on 'dead' initiative numbers where the caster has subsequerntly delayed after casting.

And I don't care. I covered that. It's irrelevant because...

Wizard casts spell on initiative count 10 on round 1. It has a duration of three rounds.

No, it doesn't. There are no spells that last more than one round and less than 6. I covered that too.