Vote for this Shadowdancer Variant.

[Jimlock]

Mlarg.


This class feels too "gamey" for me. It wouldn't feel fair to vote on it.

By "gamey" I mean it uses fluff to cover up crunch weaknesses by trading them for other less valuable crunch weaknesses.


d4 is zomg terribad!

but... a rogue that is landing sneak attacks with almost every strike?

And has a toolbox of spells... including many of the arguably most potent low level abilities?

It becomes even more gamey when you note that even the traded in weaknesses (such as the reduction in skill points which is easily offset by the focus on intelligence) aren't really all that substantial.

suit yourself

 

[Empirate]

Why're you landing Sneak Attack with almost every strike? If you mean Summon Shadow, that is not really more powerful than a first level Druid's Animal Companion, which also provides free flanking all the time. For sneak attack, you can also just flank with a teammate. Or do you mean Hide in Plain Sight? This ability only lets you get in one sneak attack, then you'll have to hide again, which is normally a move action. Doesn't strike me as too powerful, really.

Also, this PrC only comes online at the mid levels, when sneak attack damage all the time is basically what is expected of any decent rogue-ish guy. At that point, it is also what makes such a character at all viable, compared to the Wizard throwing around Dimension Door and Black Tentacles and Lesser Planar Binding, the Cleric tanking it with persistent Divine Power, Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity, and the Barbarian one-shotting anything he can charge.

Furthermore, sneak attack really isn't that powerful even on its own. It doesn't work vs. roughly one third of all monsters out there. It doesn't work if the target has concealment. And if it does work, it's just a few d6 added to damage.

Let's review the class at 10th, 15th, and 20th level, with Assassin and Wizard casting to fulfill the spellcasting prereq. Just basic progressions, no fancy sub levels or anything.

10th:
Rogue 5/Assassin 3/This Shadowdancer 2:
Sneak Attack +6d6
Casts as a 4th level Assassin (3/1 spells/day)
BAB +6
Base Saves of +2/+10/+5
HP: 35.5 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Poison Use, Death Attack, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision

Rogue 5/Wizard 3/This Shadowdancer 2:
Sneak Attack +4d6
Casts as a 4th level Wizard (3/2 spells/day)
BAB +5
Base Saves of +2/+8/+7
HP: 32.5 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision


15th:
Rogue 5/Assassin 3/This Shadowdancer 7:
Sneak Attack +8d6
Casts as a 6th level Assassin (3/3/1 spells/day)
BAB +10
Base Saves of +4/+12/+7
HP: 48 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Poison Use, Death Attack, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow II, Shadow Jump (40'), Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind

Rogue 5/Wizard 3/This Shadowdancer 7:
Sneak Attack +6d6
Casts as a 6th level Wizard (3/3/2 spells/day)
BAB +9
Base Saves of +4/+10/+9
HP: 45 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow II, Shadow Jump (40'), Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind


20th:
Rogue 5/Assassin 5/This Shadowdancer 10:
Sneak Attack +10d6
Casts as a 9th level Assassin (3/3/3/2 spells/day)
BAB +13
Base Saves of +5/+15/+9
HP: 62.5 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Poison Use, Death Attack, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow III, Shadow Jump (160'), Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind

Rogue 5/Wizard 5/This Shadowdancer 10:
Sneak Attack +7d6
Casts as a 9th level Wizard (4/4/3/2/1 spells/day)
BAB +12
Base Saves of +4/+12/+12
HP: 57.5 + 10*Con mod
Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Familiar, Scribe Scroll, Wizard Bonus Feat, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow III, Shadow Jump (160'), Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind


As you can see (I believe), these simple, unoptimized but theoretically decent progressions make for bad 20th level characters. Even at 15th level, they seem a little lackluster to me, although the builds using Assassin do provide nice synergies and good skillmonkeying. The variant builds using Wizard are worse. In exchange for a slightly better spell list and more casting in the 20th level example, you're giving up even more BAB, quite a bit of sneak attack, and a few HP.

All right, you're doing lots of sneak attack damage, which you can deal reliably. But at 10th level, this is already declining in usefulness.
Doing +6d6 damage (i.e., circa +21) with each attack sounds great, and you get to roll a lot of dice. Two weapons will mean lots of extra damage. But remember you have to get a full attack off, and you need to connect with them. At BAB +6, this will be a problem.
The problem is only aggravated at higher levels, where your bonus damage doesn't increase very rapidly, but your BAB drops off further in comparison to a simple Barbarian. BAB +13 at 20th level is horrible for melee.

You get a lot of nice tools to play with, but to be honest, magic items or spellcasting can provide these just as well, and much more. I know this is true of all of 3.x D&D, but that doesn't make the argument invalid.

Your HP are extremely low for a melee character - ranged won't work since it's hard to get reliable sneak attacks going at range, and then only at 30'. Saves aren't great, although the Wizard based variant at least gets a decent will save.


All in all, color me underwhelmed.

 

[Jimlock]

I agree with what you say for the most part.

Just one minor correction regarding this:

Or do you mean Hide in Plain Sight? This ability only lets you get in one sneak attack, then you'll have to hide again, which is normally a move action. Doesn't strike me as too powerful, really.

HIPS is not a move action ONLY. You can use it (just like the Hide skill) with every attack you make, albeit with a -20 on the hide check for every attack.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/experi...ou-hide-between-attacks-hide-plain-sight.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/305787-hide-plain-sight-hiding-melee-combat.html

 

[Empirate]

I guess you're referring to this bit of the Hide rules:

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

"Practically impossible" in this case is a far, far shot from actually impossible. So I guess with enough Hide bonuses stacked on, you could conceivably make a full attack while staying hidden. However, most DMs will probably take this bit:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

...to refute your more generous interpretation. If you "normally" make a Hide check as part of movement, but in a single instance that is specifically spelled out (viz., hiding immediately after a ranged attack), you don't, then I'd take it that the "normal" case applies here, since no other ruling is given concerning melee attacks. Most DMs will probably rule it that way, anyway, won't they?

 

[Visigani]

Why're you landing Sneak Attack with almost every strike? If you mean Summon Shadow, that is not really more powerful than a first level Druid's Animal Companion, which also provides free flanking all the time.

Indeed, the summon shadow.

It's an "animal companion" with some seriously funky and potent abilities.

However, it differs from the Druids animal companion in that it levels up as the rogue progresses. I can think of no Druid PrC that grants an advancement in Sneak Attack Damage AND Animal Companion level. There's a reason for this.

Further, take into account the fact the Shadow is INCORPOREAL. There are all kinds of shenanigans you can get upto with an incorporeal flanking buddy. Then you do something truly wicked... like give your sneak attacks the ability to do strength damage... and suddenly every other mage in the game is dropping dead when your shadow buddy uses their 1d6 str damage attack to slay them.... and nevermind "Dave of Enfeeblement", a first level spell that saps str...

Here's our strategy... I win at Init because I'm a supafast rogue... I cast Frank of Enfeeblement at that pesky mage (which will do an avg of 9.5 str damage per strike at caster level 10 and have my Shadow float on over and touch attack for an average of 3.5 str damage.

If that mage didn't start with 14 str or more... on average I'll have killed said mage in a single round, no save.

Give the shadow Spring Attack and have a glorious good time with that.

Pops up from underground every round to do str damage, and then popping right back down. Good luck targeting it with spells.

Tucker Max's Shadows. They pop up, violate you, and go back down and laugh about their shenanigans on whatever passes for the internet on the negative energy plane.

 

[Empirate]

Yeah, Shadows are quite good. But so is a lot of other stuff, and if controlling incorporeal Undead are what makes up your PC's schtick, why're you not playing a Master of Shrouds?
Also, Empowered Shivering Touch, a 5th level spell, takes care of the same Wizard no problem. Does Dex damage instead of Str, but the result should be the same, at the same level. Again, the Shadow Companion can do some good stuff - but so can other people with little effort. Shadow Companions are no more powerful than can be expected for the level.

And concerning the Druid's Animal Companion not leveling up the same time as Sneak Attack... are you serious? This is a Druid we're talking about, those come with so much built-in awesome, the only reason they don't have Sneak Attack on top of that is that it's so mediocre in comparison, it would almost detract from their sheer fantasticality.

 

[Jimlock]

I guess you're referring to this bit of the Hide rules:



"Practically impossible" in this case is a far, far shot from actually impossible. So I guess with enough Hide bonuses stacked on, you could conceivably make a full attack while staying hidden. However, most DMs will probably take this bit:

It states that you take a -20.

...to refute your more generous interpretation. If you "normally" make a Hide check as part of movement, but in a single instance that is specifically spelled out (viz., hiding immediately after a ranged attack), you don't, then I'd take it that the "normal" case applies here, since no other ruling is given concerning melee attacks. Most DMs will probably rule it that way, anyway, won't they?

It has nothing to do with the sniping rule.

SRD:
Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

Just read the OFFICIAL Q&A I linked above (2nd link), it will answer you doubts.

Believe me if there is ONE thing I know well in D&D, is HIPS.

DMs who play by RAW would rule what says in the Q&A. It is the only official source concerning the matter.

EDIT: the only objection I have in respect to your previous post is only about HIPS. Otherwise I agree with you that the PrC is not really strong.

 

[Empirate]

Sorry, Jimlock, I missed that what you linked to was a quote from the official Q&A instead of a personal opinion. It seems WotC support your reading of the rules. Although that IS a whole lot of Hide checks you're going to be rolling: one to hide in the first place, one at -20 to move up to your target, and one more to return to generic hiding after attacking. Easily doable at higher levels, though...

 

[Jimlock]

Sorry, Jimlock, I missed that what you linked to was a quote from the official Q&A instead of a personal opinion. It seems WotC support your reading of the rules.

No problem, and thank you for taking the time to discuss my PrC.

Although that IS a whole lot of Hide checks you're going to be rolling: one to hide in the first place, one at -20 to move up to your target, and one more to return to generic hiding after attacking. Easily doable at higher levels, though...

Yes. lot's of hide checks...
Just to clarify one thing. you do not take the -20 so as "to move up to your target". You make a hide check with a -20 while attacking, so as to find out if you are "seen" during the attack.
FAQ*(making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks)

For more info on HIPS (if you are interested that is), take a look at this thread, where i discuss it with iamtheend...