Vow of Poverty and Polymorph.... am I being too much of an ass?

[NuSair]

I suppose one question here is whether VoP's effects are actually tied to the character's normal form at all, or if they're granted independently of his physical form.

To me, that gets into the kind of meta conversation that really isn't covered in DnD. Example- you cast bite of the werebear on a wolf. It now has 2 claw attacks. But... how? It really doesn't make sense, it didn't change the shoulder joints and it doesn't allow the canine to stand on it's hind legs.

 

[NuSair]

Yea, you're correct by RAW on the HP due to Con change (although it was a change I personally don't like).

If you're having intense discussions on Druid HPs with this player, I hope you have a lot of drinks stocked up for VoP discussions.

I am in favor of the con change personally.... watching a druid between all their buffs and spells out preform a fighter and end up with more hit points... gaining 100+ hit points because of a spell like that, seem rather overpowered to me.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

To me, that gets into the kind of meta conversation that really isn't covered in DnD. Example- you cast bite of the werebear on a wolf. It now has 2 claw attacks. But... how? It really doesn't make sense, it didn't change the shoulder joints and it doesn't allow the canine to stand on it's hind legs.

A creature doesn't need to be able to stand on its hind legs to have or make claw attacks. See the lion for example. It's just the kit of the wolf to normally not have claw attacks (worth statting out at least), but casting a spell that grants it claw attacks isn't a stretch at all given how many other quadrupeds have them.

 

[NuSair]

A creature doesn't need to be able to stand on its hind legs to have or make claw attacks. See the lion for example. It's just the kit of the wolf to normally not have claw attacks (worth statting out at least), but casting a spell that grants it claw attacks isn't a stretch at all given how many other quadrupeds have them.

Actually, a lion is a feline and their shoulder structure is completely different than that of a canine. There is also a difference in the limbs themselves, but the main difference is in the shoulder, which is why cats do use their front paws for attacking and canines do not.

 

[TwoSix]

I am in favor of the con change personally.... watching a druid between all their buffs and spells out preform a fighter and end up with more hit points... gaining 100+ hit points because of a spell like that, seem rather overpowered to me.

You're playing 3.5 while using the Book of Exalted Deeds. Balance isn't just being ignored, you pushed it out of a window on top of the Burj Khalifa.

 

[NuSair]

You're playing 3.5 while using the Book of Exalted Deeds. Balance isn't just being ignored, you pushed it out of a window on top of the Burj Khalifa.

Yeah, I see that now, along with several other books.

I started this campaign almost 2 years ago, after not playing dnd for like 15 years or so. I ran rolemaster for a while during that time, but hadn't roleplayed in a while before that point.

Going into the game, I was unfamiliar with the rules (still trying to get in all the reading and stuff). The only book I saw people having huge issues with as I started my research was Unearthed Arcana (which I banned) and allowed use of everything else. Because I felt that one of my strong suits as a DM/GM was to incorporate and include just about anything.

The biggest issue that has really crept up, is the the player in my group who is a VoP/Wildshape/Druid has been breaking/ignoring the rules since day one and it's been a struggle ever since. In the beginning I trusted the players to be on the up and up about stuff. And pretty much everyone was, but him. Either by ignorance or choice. We are all friends outside the game, so I am doing my best to work through things. The biggest problems I've had with him are stacking things that don't stack, staying in wildshape form in anti/dead magic zones, giving himself and his animal companion extra hit points and applying BAB additional attacks to his dire wolf companion.

Granted, I put a significant amount of the blame on myself. While my skills are pretty solid in setting up a story, world, ect... I've spent the past 18 months or so learning the rules as I go.

So, now I find myself questioning every little thing he does. And I am in the process of breaking down his character spell by spell, figuring out what his stats/abilities/numbers really are. Because the spreadsheet he set up has several flaws in it.

 

[Greenfield]

Hmm. Sounds like someone's character is due for a fatal accident.

Sorry if that sounds like the "being an ass" thing that you're trying to avoid, but when someone's character is that far gone, I've found that forcing them back within the rules "destroys" the character, as far as they're concerned. They often see it as being unfair, as you picking on them. And if you call them for cheating, as opposed to "Whoops, I think you read that wrong", they'll be deeply wounded and resentful.

Far better to start over. The one problem with that is that players who get used to "beating" the DM that way will often set out to "beat" the DM again with their new character.

So be aware that while Dispel BS is very effective on characters like that, it has no actual effect on players like that. They'll come back with another character that's designed to abuse just as the first one was, whether it's the same exploitation or another one.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Actually, a lion is a feline and their shoulder structure is completely different than that of a canine. There is also a difference in the limbs themselves, but the main difference is in the shoulder, which is why cats do use their front paws for attacking and canines do not.

Then congratulations on adding yet another "must be realistic" kind of thing to D&D? If the spell says it grants the target usable claw attacks, then the creature gains them through whatever means would work. That might be a shoulder adjustment in this case, or something else. The point is that the creature gains claw attacks, and that's all anyone needs to know or care about unless you're going to dissect it or something.

 

[NuSair]

Then congratulations on adding yet another "must be realistic" kind of thing to D&D? If the spell says it grants the target usable claw attacks, then the creature gains them through whatever means would work. That might be a shoulder adjustment in this case, or something else. The point is that the creature gains claw attacks, and that's all anyone needs to know or care about unless you're going to dissect it or something.

Really? This is where you are going with this? Did you even bother read the thread or what I was using this as an example too? Honestly?

Take your net rage elsewhere please.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Really? This is where you are going with this? Did you even bother read the thread or what I was using this as an example too? Honestly?

Take your net rage elsewhere please.

There's no rage on my side (I don't dare get angry lately since I'd be liable to throw up), but I'm just trying to point out the example was odd given the (lack of) workings in D&D. The spell granting claw attacks to something that normally doesn't have them seems more straightforward and much less meta than pondering over whether VoP's effects are tied to the creature's natural form. The latter certainly needs many more rules references to work out than the former. And even the rules references themselves might be found to be overwritten or contradictory since WotC sometimes does that.

For example, if we're going to reference the SRD (which is presumably kept up to date with all errata and other such changes) we see that Polymorph leads back to Alter Self which stipulates that the caster retains all supernatural and spell-like special qualities and attacks of its natural form with some exceptions.

Yet, if we look at the polymorph rules in Rules Compendium page 122, it very plainly says

"The target loses all the special abilities it has in its natural form, including its class features, even if the assumed form would normally be able to use these class features."

But then it goes on to say:

Polymorph Subschool and Preexisting Spells: Any spell based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, a spell’s existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

Emphasis added in the last part. So if we go strictly by the first part then all special abilities, extraordinary and otherwise, are lost upon being targeted by a polymorph effect. However, going by the wording in the actual Alter Self spell says that some special qualities are retained.

So which one should be used? It's up to the DM since the rules themselves seem contradictory. So long as you're consistent you shouldn't get called an ass I would think.