Vow of Poverty and Polymorph.... am I being too much of an ass?

[NuSair]

Polymorph states:
....The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form....

Almost all (or all) of the things gained from Vow of Poverty are Special Abilities....
AC Bonus (Su)
Endure Elements (Ex)
Exalted Strike (Su)
Sustenance (Ex)
Deflection (Su)
Resistance (Ex)
Natural Armor (Ex)
Mind Shielding (Ex)
Damage Reduction (Su)
Greater Sustenance (Ex)
Energy Resistance (Ex)
Freedom of Movement (Ex)
True Seeing (Su)


I told the guy last night that when he polymorphed, that he lost all the special abilities from VoP....

Am I being too much of an ass? Or, am I wrong?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

From the SRD on alter self, which polymorph references:

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

and polymorph:

It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

So I'd rule the (Su) and (Sp) items are retained but the (Ex) are not since they do not derive from class levels; the character gains the (Ex) abilities of the new form instead.

Since VoP is easily abused (particularly when combined with wild shape or polymorph), don't feel bad about being overly restrictive.

Other opinions, see also.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think any player who takes this feat deserves a lot of scrutiny.

That said, allowing them to stack vow with a powerful form is definitely out of bounds.

 

[DMZ2112]

I think you're actually asking two questions, so I'll answer both:

1) You are using a restrictive interpretation of the RAW, but

2) It is flat out impossible to be "too much of an ass" to a player who whips out VOP.

Especially a Clever Dick who follows up with Polymorph.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

As mentioned, the character will lose all the Extraordinary abilities, but will keep the others. I wouldn't really call it being a jerk except in the case of the DM allowing everything to work before then turning back and saying "Nope, you don't get this stuff anymore."

Whether it's appropriate in the first place to allow anyone to have VoP is another matter. Put simply, it's broken, and in more than one way. Not only is it broken in the sense of poorly written, but in cases such as this where the character is using such effects as polymorph or wild shape, its effects can really change the dynamics of play in ways that a DM might not be able to handle compared to a normal character without it. Or the character could be an Incarnate or Totemist and simply not care about equipment, but still effectively have equipment thanks to the soulmelds. Then there's the RP part of keeping up with the feat.

 

[monboesen]

I'll back the prior posters up. With VOP you can NEVER be to much of an ass.

By itself it is already broken. And the player tries to stack it with another completely broken part of the rules (polymorph)......... He should be happy you dont just tell him to make another character, and rule that VOP and polymorph no longer are a part of your game.

The player already got his cake and ate it. Don't give him another.

 

[MarkB]

Yep - you've allowed Vow of Poverty in the first place, therefore by definition you are not being too much of an ass.

 

[NuSair]

As mentioned, the character will lose all the Extraordinary abilities, but will keep the others. I wouldn't really call it being a jerk except in the case of the DM allowing everything to work before then turning back and saying "Nope, you don't get this stuff anymore."

Whether it's appropriate in the first place to allow anyone to have VoP is another matter. Put simply, it's broken, and in more than one way. Not only is it broken in the sense of poorly written, but in cases such as this where the character is using such effects as polymorph or wild shape, its effects can really change the dynamics of play in ways that a DM might not be able to handle compared to a normal character without it. Or the character could be an Incarnate or Totemist and simply not care about equipment, but still effectively have equipment thanks to the soulmelds. Then there's the RP part of keeping up with the feat.

Actually, I didn't allow it before. Last night was the first he's ever used polymorph, being a wildshape druid. It all started because he was adding con bonus to his hit points and I said you can't do that, which started 30 minutes plus of..... intense discussions. But, having had a few drinks, I just let the matter drop since there wasn't going to be combat last night anyway and addressed the situation this morning.
And not sure I agree that he would keep the others. That section in the complete mage is pretty explicit and even brings up that the text of alter self and polymorph may contradict what was there and that was fine for that spell.

 

[MarkB]

I suppose one question here is whether VoP's effects are actually tied to the character's normal form at all, or if they're granted independently of his physical form.

 

[TwoSix]

Actually, I didn't allow it before. Last night was the first he's ever used polymorph, being a wildshape druid. It all started because he was adding con bonus to his hit points and I said you can't do that, which started 30 minutes plus of..... intense discussions. But, having had a few drinks, I just let the matter drop since there wasn't going to be combat last night anyway and addressed the situation this morning.
And not sure I agree that he would keep the others. That section in the complete mage is pretty explicit and even brings up that the text of alter self and polymorph may contradict what was there and that was fine for that spell.

Yea, you're correct by RAW on the HP due to Con change (although it was a change I personally don't like).

If you're having intense discussions on Druid HPs with this player, I hope you have a lot of drinks stocked up for VoP discussions.