Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Thanee]

And IMO that's irrelevant - you choose to play an ascetic, or you choose not to.

Erm... and therefore it is irrelevant, that every single ascetic in the whole universe always has the same "magic items"?

It's a disadvantage of "playing an ascetic", regardless of how you put it.

Doing so sidesteps the built-in costs of single large bonusses.

Yes, and no. For a magic item, it does. To find out, what is a compareable cost for a +8 bonus, for a character that cannot easily aquire an inherent bonus, it does not.

And by the DMG, the VoP doesn't exist - it's called "loking to all available sorces to see how WOTC would price such an item if it did exist". As it turns out, they've done precisely that.

Right. The price is 64,000 gp. The 640,000 gp only apply under a very specific guideline, which has nothing to do with the +8 bonus, but with the wealth amounts of epic level characters. It does not say, that the +8 bonus is "worth" 640,000 gp, but there is a completely different reason for this price strategy, hence it has no bearing for non-epic play at all.

In fact, the figure how is likely the best historical example of a vow of Poverty character who did (supposedly) have supernatural powers would be Saint Fancis of Assisi. He did grow up wealthy, he did spend much of his life as a spend-it-like-money wastrel, and he did claim to have been converted to asceticism due to a vision from God.

And you surely can cite any passeges which refer to the inherent bonuses to his attributes, he aquired prior to becoming an ascetic, eh!?

not so; the rules specifically allow you to defer levelling up, if you are saving your XP to cast a specific spell or make a specific magic item - like, say, that Tome of Clear Thought (+5).

If they do, I'm not aware of that, where does it say that?

Also, how high do you think are the chances, that another character would blow 20,000+ XP (the amount to get beyond the +11) for you?

Besides, even if you find such a person, the cost is still there. Just because someone else pays for it, doesn't make it go away.

No, wer've diverged intothe realities of pricing items based on the type of bonus granted, as an example of why you must pricethe +8 enhancement as a single bonus, not breaking it up into multiple +'s.

It's not pricing the bonus... it's not important, what the bonus costs. What is important is, what another person would pay for a compareable bonus. And breaking it up is a) the only way to get it pre-epic and b) the most likely way.

I GM a bunch of 3E newbies (and one veteran player), and until last night, one of them - my g/f, with whom I live - didn't know about the Vow at all.

And did she suddenly want to completely change her character concept and turn her character into an ascetic? No?

And a responsible, fair, and above all mature GM would permit (perhaps even encourage) the player to say "OH, well then, if I'd known that OOC, i wouldn't have DONE that" - and no voiding of the Vow occurs. Unless the GM is, of course, seeking to unfairly railroad the player out of their character concept.

You are reading a lot into other persons statements, don't you?

Where did I say, that I would not allow someone to pick up the VoP later in his or her career?

And just as an example for you, since it seemed not very clear...

I encouraged our Mystic Theurge player to switch one of his 1st level feats (character was 7th or 8th level by then) for Practiced Spellcaster when CD came out. Guess that's pretty compareable.

And there is a big difference to what I have said above, read again, maybe you do not miss it the second time.

BTW, the Vow of Poverty is about playing an ascetic, not a person, whose magic items cannot be taken away. And the harsh restrictions are a balancing factor, since you have to play a character with that state of mind, not one that just abides to these "totally unfair" restrictions, because otherwise his nice toys are taken away. The character has freely chosen this lifestyle, it is not forced upon him.

Let's go through the prices again, with 20th level in mind:

How did you come up with the price for the Energy Resistance?
That seems fairly high to me... 60k for 5 rings or rather 42k, considering, that they are not really different abilities.

And besides, there are 11 bonus feats, not 10.

And this still doesn't account for not being readily denied to the character.

It doesn't have to. This "cost" is countered by the other factors, like the lack of versatility, that you have to spend two feats to get it (which are far more useful, normally, than any of the bonus Exalted Feats you get), that you have to live a very restrictive lifestyle, and so on.

And it's only that low because of not one,not two, but three "gimme" actions - grossly undervaluing the +8 enhancement, grossly undervaluing the feat opportunities, and ridiculously overvaluing the lack of versatility.

Yeah, the +8 should be 91k not 64k as explained above.
The feats are way too high at 10k each IMHO, Exalted Feats are not very good on average, with very few exceptions.
I think you still don't get how much of a disadvantage that lack is, huh?

Anyways, the prices come out close enough, if you ask me. A few 10k here or there aren't exactly noticeable at that amount.

Sounds fair.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I don't like VoP because some of those abilities are just outright encounter destroyers with no way to get rid of the abilities.

If that is going to be a problem in your campaign, then just do not allow the VoP.

For a mere 40k you get a ring of freedom of movement, which also cannot be taken away in most situations. This takes care of ~99% of the grapple encounters already. The VoP is only better in the other ~1% of the situations. I dare to say, that there are many, many more situations, where the inflexible layout of the VoP abilities is a problem, than the number of situations, where their nature, and that they cannot be taken away or shut down easily, is of any importance.

Sure, there are some powerful abilities coming with the VoP, but look what kind of stuff you can pull off with the 760k worth of magic items alone at 20th level. Even a 20th level commoner will be godlike with that amount of stuff!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But that's without factoring in the "unless I'm cooperative and/or screw up playing my character, you can't take these away form me short of an antimagic field" benefit fo the Vow's effects.

That is already factored into the 760,000 gp. As I said before.

You'd never want true sight ...?!?!?

SURELY, you jest! Negate ALL invisibility, magical and mundane darkness, nonphysical concealment, and illusions ... ALL illusions? Automatically "see" through every Shadow Evocation/Conjuration ever thrown your way?

And you'd never want it ...?!?!?

... um ... wow ...

Nah. Never said anything of the kind. Read more carefully.

Of course True Sight is very valuable.

I would not spend 180,000 gp to acquire True Sight. What I actually said is I cannot see spending 270,000 gp to acquire True Sight + Regeneration -- it is too pricey if reasonable alternatives exist. For a lot of characters having, say, a +10 Intelligent weapon with many powers would be more attractive.

If no reasonable alternative exists then talking about exact dollar amounts is questionable in the first place. The basis of the discussion is one of relative value -- would you prefer the "VoP bushel" or this chest holding 760,000 gp of items chosen for your PC. It is a take it or leave it proposition with the VoP. I think I would mostly leave it.

 

[Zimri]

And it isn't regeneration as per any "ring of regeneration" that I have ever seen. It's more like fast healing. Nothing is mentioned in the descriptor text about regrowing severed body parts/heads

 

[Sephiroth no Miko]

So why do people INSIST on counting up the value of the ascetic's (various) benefits that way ... ?!?!? Single bonus is single bonus, not "any two convenient (and conveniently smaller) bonusses that add up to the same final number".

Because at least in the case of armor (and I'm not talking about any other bonus), a character can simulate the ascetic's bonus with some combination of armor and shield bonuses, which do stack with each other. An ascetic can't use either so the stacking is irrelevant to him, but a regular character can and often does. Stacking in not irrelevant in the case of the +8 enhancement as you've pointed out because +8 enhancement doesn't equal +6 enhancement and +2 inherent, in cases where a character takes VoP later in life.

However, leave it at 100,000 gp if you wish. It's no big deal to me either way.

 

[Pax]

Yes, and no. For a magic item, it does. To find out, what is a compareable cost for a +8 bonus, for a character that cannot easily aquire an inherent bonus, it does not.

NOONE can "easily" acquire an inherent bonus.

But the ascetic could be offered a few castings of Wish - even five of them at once - as a non-proprty "reward" for completing a quest. If hte local good-aligned Wizards' Guild needs the party's help, they're as likely to "pay" in terms of spellcasting services, or even at-cost magic item creation, as they are to hand over actual gold. Scrolls for the Wizard to scribe, magic arms/armor for the warrior types, some wish casting (five wizards, each tosses off a single wish) for the ascetic ... it's perfectly feasible IMO. Similarly, for a large, well-equipped temple to a good-aligned deity - except they'd be using Miracle instead of Wish.

And you surely can cite any passeges which refer to the inherent bonuses to his attributes, he aquired prior to becoming an ascetic, eh!?

Well, he WAS said to be unusually wise and charismatic; but regardless, don't be facetious, Thanee. Tell you what, show me something that says BILL GATES has bought and read any Tomes or Manuals to gain inherent bonusses, and I'll give you the references about Saint Francis having done similar.

Sheesh.

If they do, I'm not aware of that, where does it say that?

PHB page 174, right hand column, under "XP Cost":
[bq]However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level.[/bq]

Also, how high do you think are the chances, that another character would blow 20,000+ XP (the amount to get beyond the +11) for you?

And where does it say all five wishes have to come from the same exact source ... ? ^_^ Got five friends?

Besides, even if you find such a person, the cost is still there. Just because someone else pays for it, doesn't make it go away.

And I never said it cost nothing. I simply said it'd be possible to have the +8 enhancement, and up to a +5 inherent bonus as well. Which is why you certainly shouldn't be breaking the +8 enhancement bonus up into smaller bonusses!

It's not pricing the bonus... it's not important, what the bonus costs. What is important is, what another person would pay for a compareable bonus. And breaking it up is a) the only way to get it pre-epic and b) the most likely way.

Yes, what the other person would pay, for a comparable bonus. And in pricing things, "comparable" means "same number, same (general) type".

Since you cannot buy an Exalted bonus to AC in item form, you need to then look to the nearest equivalent source - and that would be the Armor bonus of bracers of armor. Regardless, though, it's ONE bonus; you don't get to break it up. Otherwise, why not just call it "ten pairs of bracers of armor (+1)" ... ?

You are reading a lot into other persons statements, don't you?

HUH?!? The part you say this in direct response to, was replying to the suggestion that the DM and Player might not picture "the line" at which the Vow is broken to be the same, and that the GM should be more lenient on player error in such cases, and allow the player to rescind his stated action.

Whichis not what you're talking about in response ... not even close!

BTW, the Vow of Poverty is about playing an ascetic, not a person, whose magic items cannot be taken away. And the harsh restrictions are a balancing factor, since you have to play a character with that state of mind, not one that just abides to these "totally unfair" restrictions, because otherwise his nice toys are taken away. The character has freely chosen this lifestyle, it is not forced upon him.

It's not the restrictions which would be totally unfair - it would be the underhanded attempts of a GM to trick a player into voiding his Vow and thus losing the benefits thereof, which would be IMO cheating. If the GM didn't want an ascetic in the party, then he should simply have disallowed the feat to begin with ... not let the character take it, and then trick the player by dancing around that vague boundary.

Player and GM need to be on the same page as to where that boundary is and isn't. Otherwise, the GM needs to be flexible and fair by allowing the player to REALISE their error and rescind the action ... or decide to proceed anyway, should the player feel that the situation warrants such a huge sacrifice on his characters' part.

How did you come up with the price for the Energy Resistance?
That seems fairly high to me... 60k for 5 rings or rather 42k, considering, that they are not really different abilities.

Pre-existing published item - first appeared in the ELH (as a non-epic item), but then appeared subsequently in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

But, if you want to insist on breaking it up into multiple items, fine - I'll just go back in and slotless-ise enough of the already-more-than-two "ring" items to reflect what someone WOULD have to pay to have the benefits in item form. IOW ... don't nitpick. I've had to argue with too many rules-lawyering munchkins in my day who tried that route; I got to be QUITE good at nitpicking back. The resistance will end up costing quite a bit more than the 144,000gp I listed, if we go down THAT road.

It doesn't have to. This "cost" is countered by the other factors, like the lack of versatility, that you have to spend two feats to get it (which are far more useful, normally, than any of the bonus Exalted Feats you get), that you have to live a very restrictive lifestyle, and so on.

Okay, then if you want to eliminate the 50% markup for nonremovability, we'll take out the half-million-GP discount for non-versatility. Now, we're back to the 850K-950K range, which is worse for your case.

Like I said, don't nitpick, you'll only lose ground.

That is already factored into the 760,000 gp. As I said before.

No, actually, it's not. As I said before. The wealth levels indicated by Table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG are gross returns, based on roughly thirteen to fourteen average-loot encounters per level. It does not account for equipment loss and/or breakage.

And it isn't regeneration as per any "ring of regeneration" that I have ever seen. It's more like fast healing. Nothing is mentioned in the descriptor text about regrowing severed body parts/heads

Hmm, my DMG lists the exact same hitpoint-per-level-per-hour healing rate. As for limbs and such - point me to the rule that determines when and how a limb is lost, and I'll figure out if that "ability" has any bearing on the price of the ability/ring/etc.

 

[Scion]

The ring of regen itself is 'massively' overpriced to begin with. Effectively the loss of limb clause will never come into play except as a torture device (since, if someone is hacking off your limbs they probably stripped your magical items beforehand anyway) and the health regen is so incredibly slow as to be nearly useless. It is nice, sure, but spending all day healing instead of casting a couple of cureing spells.. all for the low, low price of 90k.. nah..

Taking away the limb regen part eats away most of its effecive cost anyway, as it gets rid of the need for the regenerate spell.

I dont know how much an item like this would cost without the limb regen, but even with it I wouldnt price it more than 30k.

How much really is being able to get a cure light/cure mod cast on you every hour? Assuming that you were wearing it the whole time, since it doesnt work on damage that was taken when you werent wearing it.

Not much really. 10k maybe. It takes up a valuable slot and does nothing unless you are willing to simply wait around forever.


As for the true seeing though, the gem of seeing is only 75k. That is already for an unslotted item and such. If we assume it is a slotted item (say googles or something) but works for much longer during the day (continuously) we can probably just leave the price the same.

So, for those two items the price is probably closer to 85k total.

Also, in the comparison before you forgot to subtract off 25k. 10k for the sacred vow and 15k for the vow of poverty itself. So those two things knock down the overall price by quite a bit

In addition, all of the abilities are only useable by good, exalted characters. 30% reduction seems in order

Looks like this guy might actually need 'more' to make up for the huge hit of not being able to pick his gear and being so far below the wealth chart.

 

[Celtavian]

Celtavian and Pax (I only signal you two out because it has been a while since i read the whole thread and can't recall anyone else as vehemently anti-VoP as you two).

You seem to be just glossing over the fact that (and I'll use my case since I know it) My VoP monk who is SUPPOSED to be fighting big bad evil things from other planes and what not WILL NEVER be able to penetrate a DR that has a metal as one of it's components. Oh sure I can over come all the good DR in the blinking multiverse but stick a metal type or piercing on it and I am out of luck. A situation easily rectified by less than 10k gold that will forever be beyond me.

I'm not glossing over that fact. That is a limitation, and does affect play at high levels. However, a high level monk with VoP will probably average a good amount of damage to punch through DR. Not as good as the fighter with a weapon of the right material, but still very nice.

I'm not actually concerned about the offensive abilities of VoP. VoP is overpowered defensively IMO. They give alot of defensive powers that are non-dispellable and disruptive to certain elements that can be important plot elements in a campaign or tactical elements in a combat. It makes my life difficult if I don't always account for the VoP character's abilities that basically can't be countered save in a manner that would counter the enemies magical and supernatural abilities as well.

I do concede that VoP is not overpowered offensively. In fact, it can at times be weak offensively with the new DR rules.

 

[Pax]

Because at least in the case of armor (and I'm not talking about any other bonus), a character can simulate the ascetic's bonus with some combination of armor and shield bonuses, which do stack with each other. An ascetic can't use either so the stacking is irrelevant to him, but a regular character can and often does.

So, it doesn't count that my Ascetic Sorceror can cast shield, and (at 20th level) have an AC of 29, before dexterity or other spell-gained modifiers ... ? Rather than the 25 that the Vow would normally give by itself?

The ring of regen itself is 'massively' overpriced to begin with.

Doesn't matter; playing the game as published, that's the closes approximation. And since there are no rules for limb loss, I'd have to say that the limb-regaining benefits of the ring are a moot point entirely, and not worth ANY reduction in cost.

You can dislike the price all you want, but that's what the designers have pegged that basic ability at, price-wise.

As for the true seeing though, the gem of seeing is only 75k. That is already for an unslotted item and such. If we assume it is a slotted item (say googles or something) but works for much longer during the day (continuously) we can probably just leave the price the same.

That's a nonstarter. The Gem only works while held in yourhand, and then held up to yoru eye and looked through. It's not constantly in effect, it's use-activated. You can't use the Gem of Seeing and wield a double-weapon - the Ascetic can wield a double weapon (the quarterstaff, specifically), and still has True Seeing active!

Further, the Gem is a held object, so while in use, it is subject to sunder and disarm attempts - making it far more vulnerable to removal than an ordinary, worn piece of magical equipment.

 

[Celtavian]

re

You raise some good points, Celtavian.

Certainly a DM should think carefully before allowing VoP in their campaign because of the encounter destroying nature of a couple abilities.

I would note that the VoP PC has a few glaring weaknesses:

(1) Mobility: No Cape of the Mountebank, Winged Boots, Potion of Flying. Being stuck groundbound is a deathwish in quite a few non-rare middling or higher level encounters.

True, but most non-caster types are subject to this limitation save for the potion. Most of the time, he will have an allied caster provide a VoP character with needed mobility.

(2) Too little healing: Regeneration is not a substitute for throwing a few potions down your throat when the clock is ticking.

Very true. This is definitely a prominent limitation that can only be handled by classes that heal.

(3) Classic "Bat Belt" utility stuff: Potion of Invisibility. Cloak of Elvenkind. Poison antidote. Potion of Blur, Cloak of Displacement, or Fortification armor in case you are hunted by Rogues/Assassins. Haversack, Bag of Holding. etc. No odd items to give your pokemount/companion some survivibility.

Definitely class dependent. A VoP caster would have few problems except having to choose spells that use only cheap material components. You definitely wouldn't want to play a VoP rogue. VoP is best for monks. Most players that would use it would make monk characters. I don't think this feat would be all that bad for any other type of character.

None of these weaknesses are impossible or even difficult to overcome with excellent teamwork. Just be careful about assuming teamwork will always cover your backside. I would emphasis that any character that does not carry a Potion of Fly, Potion of Invis, and Potion of Blur once you reach middle levels is flirting with death IMO.

True, true.