Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Piratecat]

Wow I have only ever seen one other thread on here filled with such venom. and that got a mod involved in telling the offender to calm down. I wonder when the warning to Mecra is coming.

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[Numion]

Still open?

Nice!

It was a nice little numerical analysis. However, those rarely tell the real deal about balance. Just like people had min/maxed numerical 'proof' of Mystic Theurges ultimate brokenness .. that just wasn't there in actual use.

I advocate actual playtesting to see if something is horribly broken. At least that cost-analysis isn't accurate. 10K a pop for feats? A bit steep. Also the doubling for non-slotted items is suspect, as normal PCs don't need to

a) take all that in the package

b) if they do, they don't have to wear all it at once

At least in our group some items can be stored in a bag or backpack when it's not needed. Situation warrants whats in those oh-so-precious slots.

ps. and the claim that because WotC priced feats at 10K makes all worth that balance-wise makes the whole notion of balance suspect, or at least any gp - balance connection.

 

[Pax]

Actually, at least when I posted a similar analysis here on ENWorld, I doubled it not because it was slotless (though I borrowed that specific multiplier, for familiarity's sake) ... but because the benefits of VoP cannot be taken away withou the ascetic's consent. No pickpocket, sunder-monger, ambush-to-capture, or similar "old standby" in the GM's toolbox of underhanded tricks can eliminate even part of what an ascetic has gained from their Vow. In fact, nothing short of an antimagic field can touch anyof it.

The idea of pricing feats at 10K each is based on the Arms and Equipment Guide - it's not an exact measure, because each feat would have to be assessed individually.

And even if we ignore the bonus feats - price them at 0gp each - that's a drop in the bucket compared to what hte RAW state each of those bonusses shoudl cost.

At 20th level, the ability enhancemnts alone are not insignificant: +8, +6, +4, and +2. Without factoring anything in for their indestructibility and unremovability, that's 696,000gp of abilities (640K, 36K, 16K, and 4K respectively).

The +5(good) from Exalted Strike is superior to a simple +5 weapon, but not quite as good as a +5, sure-striking weapon - so even just pricing it at +5 is a marginally low-ball estimate; that's another 50Kgp right there. We're up to 746,000gp, out of the 760,000gp that a 20th-level PC is expected to have.

No need to breathe, no need to eat or drink, constant true sight, constant endure elements, Resistance (15) to all five energies ... I guarantee you, items performing those functions - even destructible, removable, slotted items - will cost more than the 14,000gp "left" after covering only the top two abilities.

So - it's truly laughable to say the vow is "underpowered". Perhaps "Unsuited for certain players, campaigns, characters, or styles of play" ... but certainly not underpowered.

IMC, I cut the bonus feats back to one per 5 levels, but granted inherent bonusses (+1 to each stat per 4 levels), as the attribute fall-behind was worse than the "loss" of opportunities to take already-in-short-supply Exalted Feats.

I find either version (RAW or my own) to be reasonably balanced, if you keep wealth and prevalence of magic within 10-20% of the RAW expectations. I simply happen to prefer the flavor of my vesion slightly better (plus I smoothed some parts of it out, to make continuing the progressionof benefits into Epic levels an easier task).

 

[Scion]

Not getting to change equipment is a 'huge' hit. Much, much larger than any benefit from the equipment not being able to be taken away easily (and it can be taken away mind you).

Also, pricing the +8 item useing epic rules just doesnt work, it isnt worth 640k gp, more like 64k gp. Or, at worst, 86k gp (+6 enhancement item, +2 inherant bonus).

I have seen the vow played from level one (human) and while it is nice it has incredibly glaring holes. Especially since it cannot be changed up to be made more favorable.

It is only playable on the classes that get the most benefit, for others it is practically a slap in the face.

So, with the vastly reduced price of the +8 bonus (and it should be priced in the nonepic regime, especially since the feat itself doesnt naturally flow into epic territory to begin with) and appropriate pricing of the feats (most of which are worth close to 0 gp anyway.. oohh, I spent a feat to shed light as a candle) along with taking into account the very nature of the feat (it does cost 2 feats to get in the first place, the abilities cannot be switched around to help out more, and it can be taken away by foes who plan for it) it comes out in the end to be an interesting, but potentially very weak, feat.

 

[Sephiroth no Miko]

Actually, at least when I posted a similar analysis here on ENWorld, I doubled it not because it was slotless (though I borrowed that specific multiplier, for familiarity's sake) ... but because the benefits of VoP cannot be taken away withou the ascetic's consent. No pickpocket, sunder-monger, ambush-to-capture, or similar "old standby" in the GM's toolbox of underhanded tricks can eliminate even part of what an ascetic has gained from their Vow. In fact, nothing short of an antimagic field can touch anyof it.

Unless, of course, the ascetic breaks his vow. Then it all goes poof. Forever. And just as a DM can create a situation where he destroys a party's items with sunder, thieves, disjunction, what have you... a DM is capable of creating a situation for an ascetic where he is tempted into breaking that vow. It may require a little more thought than the average encounter, but it certainly is possible. Just pointing out that it's not entirely invulnerable/untouchable.

Still, interesting numerical analysis.... however, I think what some people have said before and I agree, is that it doesn't really take into account the disadvantages of the feat, price-wise-- i.e., the lack of versatility. Granted, it would be very hard to price that. Yes, I realized it would cost a whoooole lot of gold to get all the abilities and benefits the feat confers (probably more than the listed wealth for character level in the DMG as you've pointed out), but that inability to customize can be a real liability so it winds up balancing everything out. And I think playtesting pretty much supports that.

The only real beef I have with VoP (the feat, not your analysis) is that it is seems heavily predisposed to monks, druids, and sorcerers. It would be nice to try out the idea with some the other classes without running into severe problems.

 

[Thanee]

Actually, at least when I posted a similar analysis here on ENWorld, I doubled it not because it was slotless (though I borrowed that specific multiplier, for familiarity's sake) ... but because the benefits of VoP cannot be taken away withou the ascetic's consent.

And how much did you deduct for having the abilities fixed (and some of those are not too great, like the most important bonus to saves, which is rather pathetic)? Nothing? Yeah, right!

At 20th level, the ability enhancemnts alone are not insignificant: +8, +6, +4, and +2. Without factoring anything in for their indestructibility and unremovability, that's 696,000gp of abilities (640K, 36K, 16K, and 4K respectively).

The +8 is actually worth no more than 91k if you use a +2 manual/tome and a +6 enhancement item, but you know that already. That's the only reasonable way to price that.

Epic level costs have absolutely no meaning in this comparison as you said yourself somewhere up there (IIRC), the VoP is meant for characters up to 20th level, not beyond. Those characters can get a bonus to a single attribute as high as +11 (enhancement plus inherent, not counting polymorphing or other means to increase this even further), the ascetic is stuck at +8 here. So it's more of a disadvantage than a bonus, actually. Surely not something to use an epic multiplier on to measure its power.

Of course, you could - hypothetically speaking - aquire those tomes before becoming an ascetic and stack that on top of your enhancement bonus, but I doubt this totally ridiculous case of munchkinism has any bearing here. Really!

If someone did that in my game, it would count as breaking the vow automatically, so after spending the feats the character would aquire no benefit whatsoever.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Using 640k rather reminds of those discussions where someone asks if he can pay 2k for a Ring of Protection vs. Evil. The naive use of the formula is obviously wrong in both cases. 640k can only be justified when the character in question has already stacked on a number of boosts including a +4 or +5 Inherent bonus. That is obvious from any reasonable power analysis. If the PC in question is not doing a superstack, then I see no reason to believe that the price could not be set at 64k (or slightly higher).

I would also like point out that the 760k number, to extent it has any meaning at all to this discussion, represents a snapshot in time of the items that have survived so far. If destruction of items is a factor, that has already been weighed in. The wealth guideline for a 20th character has convoluted in the expected losses to a 19th level character, the wealth guideling for a 21st level has convoluted in the expected losses to a 20th level character, etc.

 

[Pax]

Not getting to change equipment is a 'huge' hit. Much, much larger than any benefit from the equipment not being able to be taken away easily (and it can be taken away mind you).

I don't think you understand. The point here is, to gt JUST the abilities of the Vow, would cost more than any other character would have, if the game were played "as published" with regards to wealth/loot/etc.

So how does anyone else have anything to change to ... ?

Further ... do you really think fighters will have two or more full suits of armor, a half-dozen different highly-specialised weapons, sixty pairs of boots, thre cloaks, five robes, etc, etc ... ? I mean, really - either no one "outfit" is worththe effort at that level, or you're playing a game which isn't within the as-published bounds of character wealth.

Also, pricing the +8 item useing epic rules just doesnt work, it isnt worth 640k gp, more like 64k gp. Or, at worst, 86k gp (+6 enhancement item, +2 inherant bonus).

Beg to differ. It is an Epic item - the only WOTC items which produce a continuous +8 enhancement bonus to a single attribute happen to be Epic items, and they cost 640,000gp.

A +6 enhancement Bonus and a +2 Inherent Bonus is not equal in value, either. Reember, if you take the Vow of Poverty as your 18th-character-level feat, you get ALL the benefits, except the bonus feats. So it's possible to be a 20th level Ascetic, and already have a +5 inherent bonus. Since the bonus is not anitem you own, nor an ability you can choose not to use, it's still in effect.

Now, if the Vow DID give you a +6 Enhancement and +2 Inherent bonus ... the two Inherent bonusses wouldn't stack, so your total bonus owuldbe +11.

However, it doesn't; it gives a +8 enhancement bonus. And all of that does stack with the pre-existing +5 inherent bonus, for a total of +13 ...

It's a single bonus of a single type, and must be priced as a single bonus of a single type. The precedent for pricing a continuous +8 enhancement bonus to a single attribute is 640,000gp, per the ELH. It's not a price I made up myself, it's the price WOTC decided, after playtesting the Epic rules, was appropriate, fair, and balanced.

It is only playable on the classes that get the most benefit, for others it is practically a slap in the face.

So? Playing a low-to-average-strength-dex-and-con vanilla Fighter is much the same; wearing platemail is a big smack in the face for sorcerors or wizards (without PrCs, of course), and so on. Just because it's a suboptimal choice for SOME characters, doesn't make in underpowered in general.

For those classes most suited to the effects of hte Vow of Poverty, said Vow is reasonably balanced. And I happen to believe that the benefits offered - which at pre-epic levels you couldn't afford to get ANY other way except WITH the Vow of Poverty - are sufficiently good to match any supposed lack of versatility.

Unless, of course, the ascetic breaks his vow. Then it all goes poof. Forever. And just as a DM can create a situation where he destroys a party's items with sunder, thieves, disjunction, what have you... a DM is capable of creating a situation for an ascetic where he is tempted into breaking that vow.

Yes, but it still requires the Ascetic's active collusion to pull it off. The player could simply smile at the GM and say "no, nice try ... but, I don't think so." You see, while the GM can tempt you - he can't force you, without a righteously-deserved OOC complaint about being railroaded.

That doesn't work so well when the BBEG sunders your weapon. Sure, you may (in fact, should) be able to pick up a replacement - or get your own repaired - at a later date.

But that's the catch, at a later date. Right then, in the hot seat, you're sans magic weapon - and the ascetic just picks up ANOTHER previously-nonmagical simple weapon ... or makes a fist ... or whatever. Their Exalted Strike kicks in immediately, to full effect and without delay.

It may require a little more thought than the average encounter, but it certainly is possible. Just pointing out that it's not entirely invulnerable/untouchable.

It'sa lot easier for the GM to force an equipment-removal on the party at large without destroying character concepts ('cause the equipment can be reclaimed or replaced). However, if s/he forcibly voids the ascetic's vow, without the player's consent - that's playing dirty pool, because it invalidates the character itself.

And how much did you deduct for having the abilities fixed (and some of those are not too great, like the most important bonus to saves, which is rather pathetic)? Nothing? Yeah, right!

Fixed for effects from items/the vow, only - not from spells cast by yourself or team-mates. Resistance bonus? You can get up to a +8 from a single spell, Superior Resistance - the heck with a "mere" +5. And you CAN stillbe handed potions to drink, mind.

But, are you saying "not having an entire alternate set of equipment/abilities is worth a discount on the price of the equipment/abilities you DO have" ... ? If so - cite me the rule, 'cause I often DON'T have lots of alternate pieces of equipment. If I own it, I'mwearing it - that tends to be my characters' pattern.

Sure, a non-ascetic could choose to sell their old gear and get new. Then again, the ascetic could have chosen not to take the feat in the first place!

The +8 is actually worth no more than 91k if you use a +2 manual/tome and a +6 enhancement item, but you know that already. That's the only reasonable way to price that.

You're absolutely wrong about this; see my response to a similar error, above.

Epic level costs have absolutely no meaning in this comparison as you said yourself somewhere up there (IIRC), the VoP is meant for characters up to 20th level, not beyond. Those characters can get a bonus to a single attribute as high as +11 (enhancement plus inherent, not counting polymorphing or other means to increase this even further), the ascetic is stuck at +8 here.

The highest the ascetic can getis +13, not +8 - and that's 2 points better than the non-ascetics. Heck, even starting at 1st level - an ascetic Sorceror. Fire off some wishes of your own for the inherent bonus, and *poof* instant +13 total!

If someone did that in my game, it would count as breaking the vow automatically, so after spending the feats the character would aquire no benefit whatsoever.

Oh, really. And you wouldn't tellthe playe ahead of time? Shame on you, if so!

What if they'd played the character through, oh, 16th level or so, and had already acquired and used a +5 tome ... before they even knew about the Vow of Poverty? They could take levels of Wonderworker or Sword of Righteousness, and have the Vow of Poverty by 18th level - without ever having had the intent to commit an act of "totally ridiculous [...] munchkinism".

And that still doesn't address the ascetic Sorceror who casts Wish himself, to get said +5 inherent bonus.

I would also like point out that the 760k number, to extent it has any meaning at all to this discussion, represents a snapshot in time of the items that have survived so far. If destruction of items is a factor, that has already been weighed in. The wealth guideline for a 20th character has convoluted in the expected losses to a 19th level character, the wealth guideling for a 21st level has convoluted in the expected losses to a 20th level character, etc.

No, actually, that's not the case. The wealth-by-level tables assume no destruction of PC equipment by the GM - as it explicitly describes in the DMG. I refer you to page 135 of that book for further reading.

 

[Thanee]

But, are you saying "not having an entire alternate set of equipment/abilities is worth a discount on the price of the equipment/abilities you DO have" ... ?

No, I'm saying that being unable to ever have anything but what is listed on the table is worth a discount, and a pretty huge one, actually. There is no way, that you can spend your resources in any way other than what has been laid out before you. Selling and getting new gear isn't even required, that's just a bonus.

You're absolutely wrong about this; see my response to a similar error, above.

What's wrong there, that there is no such thing as a 10x epic multiplier for item costs in the DMG? Hmm... no, I don't think that is it.

That's right, there is none, because it is reserved for epic level play (hence it is introduced in the ELH not the DMG). VoP is not meant (as written) for epic level play. These two have no intersection, whatsoever.

Now, it would be fair to mention, that it is simply impossible to get a +8 enhancement bonus otherwise, since it caps at +6, but then you just need to find something else (like an inherent bonus), which can be used to cover the missing +2 for a comparison of the approximate item value you get with the VoP. Or you could just apply the regular formula, even though it is not possible to get that high, but I think the other method is more accurate and does better mimic actual play situations.

It is completely irrelevant how much a character would have to pay for a +8 enhancement bonus (which, BTW, would be 64k per the DMG, it just doesn't exist ), but how much it would cost to obtain a compareable bonus. The closest thing in the DMG is the +6 enhancement +2 inherent bonus. Hence, that has to be used to compare (or the 64k extrapolation otherwise).

The highest the ascetic can getis +13, ...

As I said... hypothetically, and that is only possible, if the ascetic can cast Wish (or Miracle I guess), and there is a HUGE XP cost involved to get there.

Besides, it's actually impossible to cast 5 Wishes in a row pre-epic, since it costs more XP than you'll ever have available in the necessary time frame of 5 rounds, unless you are using silly stuff like the Dweomerkeeper ability to not pay any XP for a Wish, but then you will end up at the same place where the people go, who spend all their money on manuals and tomes to rack up inherent bonuses and then become ascetics afterwards.

Three Wishes is max, and that would give you the same +11 anyone else can get, with the prerequisite of being able to cast the spell (which only a really small percentage of all ascetics will be able to and so this cannot generally be assumed, anyways (+8 is the regular maximum)) AND an additional cost of 15,000 XP (not a small sum for sure), since the other person can just buy the +5 tome with gold. The ascetic does not have this liberty.

Anyways, we are talking about items here, not class abilities. Classes are balanced already (more or less).

If you only compare equipment, which is what the VoP abilities emulate, there is no way to go beyond +8 for the ascetic, but anyone else can go to +11, using only those resources. And everyone can do that, not just sorcerers!

Oh, really. And you wouldn't tellthe playe ahead of time? Shame on you, if so!

Right. I'd actually assume, that the player does know that already. There is no need to tell. See, I only play with reasonable persons, not people who would use their money on tomes and then pick up VoP. These people can play somewhere else.

What if they'd played the character through, oh, 16th level or so, and had already acquired and used a +5 tome ... before they even knew about the Vow of Poverty? They could take levels of Wonderworker or Sword of Righteousness, and have the Vow of Poverty by 18th level - without ever having had the intent to commit an act of "totally ridiculous [...] munchkinism".

That's not what I am talking about.

And this situation will never happen in a game, anyways. So, frankly, who cares.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sephiroth no Miko]

Yes, but it still requires the Ascetic's active collusion to pull it off. The player could simply smile at the GM and say "no, nice try ... but, I don't think so." You see, while the GM can tempt you - he can't force you, without a righteously-deserved OOC complaint about being railroaded.

Not necessarily. While it's pretty obvious whether a weapon is sundered or not (after all, if it's lying on the ground in pieces....), the line of what constitutes vow breaking can be quite blurred. (Just see the recent threads arguing over what a player can and cannot keep under this vow.) A DM could interpret things one way, and the player could wind up disagreeing with his interpretation. In that case, a DM might legitimately feel that the character has broken the vow, while the player might be going, "no way!" Would his complaint about being 'railroaded' be righteously-deserved? That's a matter of opinion. Yes, some DMs play dirty. But players can also be selfish; they may not want to admit they've broken the vow because they don't want to lose its benefits.

It's a lot easier for the GM to force an equipment-removal on the party at large without destroying character concepts ('cause the equipment can be reclaimed or replaced). However, if s/he forcibly voids the ascetic's vow, without the player's consent - that's playing dirty pool, because it invalidates the character itself.

I agree that it's is far easier to destroy equipment. But honestly, how is getting an ascetic to void his vow any dirtier than causing a paladin character to lose his paladinhood (which also "invalidates" the character)? Both are characters who have to walk a very narrow and straight path. If they swerve from that path, then they lose its benefits. Players are not saints (not usually) and sometimes greed will get the better of them, whether they intend it or not.

A ex-VoP isn't entirely screwed anyhow. Sure he's lost the benefits of that feat, but he's still got his class abilities and what's to keep him from picking up items now? It might take him a while to accumulate decent gear (depending on his level) but the point is, he's hardly unplayable. So I would have to respectfully disagree with your point about it invalidating the character.

But that's starting to veer off from the main point of the discussion... which I believe was about the doubling of the cost because the ascetic's bonuses cannot be taken away from him (easily) as opposed to a character's normal equipment.

On that front, I can see your point. There is something to be said about being able to pick up any simple weapon and have it be +5 good-aligned. And yes, I think that should be pricey. But if you're going to convert all the bonuses an ascetic gets into a monetary value, I think you should convert all the minuses an ascetic suffers (like a lack of customization or not being able to use consumable magic items, particularly in a jam) into a monetary value as well and add that to the total. Because just adding one side but not the other and comparing just that with the listed character wealth would give you an inaccurate view of how much that feat is worth.