Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[ThirdWizard]

I agree with Elric, it doesn't matter what type of bonuses they are getting if they can never gain any more bonuses than what is given. There's no reason to specify any difference between enhancement, luck, and competence bonuses to attack and damage for instance, so a +4 weapon and a green ioun stone (I believe) should do the trick.

EDIT: checked and the ioun stone doesn't give +1 damage, but you get the picture right?

 

[Scion]

Good point If you are unable to mix and match bonuses anyway from a lot of sources then the sources you do get dont matter much what they are called.

mmm.. +8 inherant, 200k

 

[Elric]

Actually, for vow of poverty characters the type of bonus does matter to some extent because they can have spells cast on them. In most cases, their bonus type will not overlap with spells (iirc, exalted strike is enhancement, ability score bonuses are enhancement and exalted AC bonus does not stack with armor).

Pax- right. I was just using a monk because it was my first example and wisdom because I could think of a couple of different effects that an increase in wisdom has for a monk, all of which can be duplicated by other magic items.

It is clear that a sorceror gets much more out of a charisma increase than a straight fighter. A fighter will only use charisma for skills. If you made an item that gave you +1 to all charisma based-skills, provided that you have no enhancement bonuses to charisma, how much would it cost? Certainly less than 4000 gp. Probably more like 250-1250 gp.

For a fighter then, an item of +2 charisma is not worth 4000 gp. In fact, how much would an item that gave you "+2 charisma for the purposes of spellcasting, provided that you have no enhancement bonuses to charisma" cost? Pretty darn close to 4000 gp.

A Paladin gets +1 to all saves for buying an item of charisma +2. Assume that the only other bonuses that you could get to saves were resistance (+x to all saves, for x^2 *1000 gp). Then the charisma bonus would have the same value as (2n+1)*1000 gold spent on resistance, where n is your current resistance bonus (the marginal cost of getting n+1 to resistance).

Note that this is a big advantage for a paladin trying to improve his saves. One of the features of a good class is the ability to make stats useful even if they are not useful normally. Then, the quadratic nature of item costs makes it easy to get a lot of bonuses to different stats instead bonuses to only 1-2 stats.

 

[Scion]

I know what you mean about the stacking issues and spells being cast on someone. However, in 3.5 most buffing spells have an almost negligible duration (or at least nearly all of the ones I used to use), so this issue is a little bit lighter. If you dont even bother to memorize a buff spell then it doesnt matter

But your point does stand, the types do still matter at least to some degree.

 

[Tatsukun]

Did you take in to account the fact that a PC with VoP is effectively using all his slots? Remember that a VoP PC can’t use / own any magic items (IIRC). This means no healing potions, no utility items, no nothin’. It sounds like he could get into trouble quickly!

Has anyone played a non-monk with VoP? It seems like any other class you take a big hit from the AC and inability to heal yourself. Maybe a Pally would be OK, but he would still be lacking AC.

I’ll write up a few NPC’s today to see if they come out the same with and without VoP.

-Tatsu

 

[Scion]

It seems like it would be really interesting for a sorcerer or wizard.. if the wizard could keep his spellbook or get free feats to keep the spells in mind instead.

Wish it was better for a psion ;/ It would be incredibly flavorful, but most of what it gives isnt quite up to par with what they should be getting in psionic equipment.

 

[James McMurray]

What do you mean? Apart from its coming from the psionics handbook instead of the DMG, psionic gear isn't much different from normal gear. Some of it s more powerful (feeder weapons) but some of it is less powerful (skill stones). And some of it has near-exact duplicates with different forms (power stones and tattoos).

 

[Scion]

Really feeder weapons arent that strong, I actually had a character who was based soley on having a mind feeder/body feeder. He had his place, and in his place he was very good, but it was so incredibly narrow as to almost be unplayable past level 12. Hopefully saying that wont start a riot, but it is true in my experience.

I was actually thinking mainly of only a few items. The psionic torque to reduce power costs by 1 PP and the skins. Plus a psion can already wear armor without a huge problem. So the amount of things that they actually gain from the feat arent as large as what they could have had otherwise.

mmm.. master dorje cant use that without dorje's.

cant use any of the craft feats.

if you use a creation feat do you lose your vow? After all, for a period of time you 'have' a few hundred pounds of something. I know it seems like an odd question, but really, if you cant carry anything worth anything generally then that would break it right there if you tried to make it and use it.

All in all, I guess it comes down to psions like to have a few different specialized equipment things, and they can already wear armor.

 

[DM_Matt]

Elric, that Wisdom increase also gives you more spells per day and +1 spell DC, if you go with cleric (or other divine spellcaster class), instead of monk.

Bonus types should be priced based ont eh type, always. The biggest reason is stacking. a +1 Inherent Bonus is worth as much as a +5 Enhancement Bonus ... because it'd stack with any spell or effect that gave an Enhancement Bonus. Which, as luck would have it, are (literally) a dime a dozen.

Yes, but if you could help it, oyu would try to get all the other bonus types BEFORE you get inherant. Inherant is very pricey and only worth getting if you have everytihng else. Even if they are a dime a dozen A) the animal buffs now suck, and B) even if you could assume that someone would always have an animal buff on you (which are +4), its still cheaper to get a +6 item (36k) which is the same marginal increase over having the spell always one (and ends the need for it) than a +2 inherant bonus (55k and if you had a +1 inherant its wasted)

Of course, Elric's whole system implies some level of choice in the magic that you wind up with. If your campaign doesn't have much of a market in which magical items are bought, sold, and traded, if it is stingy on item creation rules, and if players are rarely created, with a choice in items, at higher levels, the system doesn't work as well. In the campaign that Elric plays in, standard magical items can be sold for half market value and other standard items bought at standard rates in the PC's home major city (Freeport)

 

[reiella]

Interesting tidbit of the moment that seemed to have been overlooked in the initial overview/write up.

The expected Wealth of Character value is assuming that some measure of the character's wealth will be depleted through advancement gameplay (important when doing the Level 20 Comparisons).

The traditional, Same EL encounter should exhaust 1/4 of party resources (party resources refer more broadly to hitpoints and spells in addition to expendable resources) would place the relative level of balance at a much closer viewpoint.

Also lacking liquidity isn't a good situation for a 'Standard' Adventuring party (especially one that may be faced with having to shell out 20,000+ gp for True Resurrection). Just as the inability to use potions yourself which only becomes significant in a combat situation, as any other time, the other party members may 'chip' in their healing stock.

At a glance, I noticed on numerical falacy, there should be 11 feats mentioned (assuming human), however, you do need to account for the fact that you're spending 2 feats specifically to obtain those 11 feats. Also, interestingly enough, the human (VoP) gains 3 more feats than the non-human (VoP) in this situation, as the bonus feat at 2nd is unobtainable as well. Vow of Povetry isn't selectable as a fighter bonus feat, so it's kinda hard/impossible to take the Vow at 2nd.

There's also the whole 'Exalted' requirement, which is greatly minor, I just didn't see it mentioned .

And honestly, it's only really 'power viable' for monks, sorcerers, or wizards (if your DM is nice about spellbooks).

I dislike Vow of Povetry for its idea myself. I dislike the mechanic of a feat being less powerful (on a 'point level') if you take it later in your career. However it is necessary given the nature of the feat. I may be willing to play with it myself or allow another player to for testing if the opportunity presents itself.