Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

[Moleculo]

Its important to look at the fact that the balancing gp amounts are for starting characters. I thought that the balancing factor was that since aescetics never get items, so they can't get any items throughout their progression through their levels. So its like they get the items they would accumulate while level 20 upfront, rather than shoving them back a level and thus screwing the aescetic in abilites.

Also if they disobey the feat's requirements, they lose all of the benefits irrevocably. And you cant just get equivalent amounts of equipment, i mean where would it come from? Certainly arent going to find it all at once. That or dilute the total party wealth. Even worse, the loss is forever and you've wasted a feat.

So my old epic level hand book says 975,000gp is good for a starting 21st level. Taking into account that i think whoever posted this totally went overboard on the damage reduction equivalence (compared to lets say invulnerability on armor) and that there is a chance to lose all this forever, its not so farfetched.

I think my favorite defense of the poorboy though is that magical items that require an alignement (ie must be good) are entitled to 70% reduction in price. Which brings it the total to 749,786 gold, well under starting gold.

 

[Curugul]

VoP + Wildshape

How does it interact?

Wildshape is based on Polymorph which is based on Alter Self.

Alter self states: "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."


Vow of Poverty is based on *character* level. Does this mean while in wild shape, the druid looses all EX abilities? Or, since character level is just the total of all your class levels, do you retain vow of poverties EX abilities?


Anyone clear on this? Matters to a PC i'm playing atm =/


Thanks,

Curugul

 

[James McMurray]

You would lose the VoP's (Ex) benefits.

 

[Elric]

wilder_jw has it exactly right.

Here’s an example to show why the analysis so far about Vow of Poverty is wrong on the gp amounts. Suppose that a character has a +8 Armor AC (and no other AC or stat bonuses) from vow of poverty- is this worth 64,000 gold? Not a chance! By minimizing the marginal cost for an extra point of AC you can take Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Nat Armor +1, Gloves of Dex +2, Bracers of Armor +3, Ioun Stone of Insight +1= 22k, and you have a Dex bonus to go with it.

Has anyone actually played a Vow of Poverty character? I have a 12th level ascetic monk, and he’s very good, but not overpowered. If anything, it is his feat combos (Defensive Throw + Hold the Line + Great Throw), not vow of poverty, that make him powerful. I mean, it’s darn fun to walk around with a 5-foot aura of holiness! Mind-Shielding, DR, Greater Sustenance and Endure Elements have never been used in about 4 sessions playing the character.

Admittedly, having access to some of the very powerful exalted feats (Holy Ki Strike) is very strong, but many of the exalted feats give only minor benefits. Of course, many of these feats have ability prereqs (Cha, for example) that most purely min/maxed characters will not meet. Here’s an easy comparison, since this is almost born out w/ the other monk in the group.

Monk level 12, 88k, magic items
Gauntlets of Str +4, Boots of Dex +2, Headband of Wis +4, Vest of Nat Armor +2, Ioun Stone (+1 Insight AC), Ring of Deflection +2, Monk’s Belt (+1 AC, +2 dmg/hit at this level, +1 stunning fist/day), Bracers of Mighty Fists +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Amulet of Health +2 (86k spent, I think), +2 strength from ability score placement (see below)

Have the wizard cast Mage Armor (Extended w/ metamagic rod on you) each day: cost: 1000 gp (1/3 of rod’s cost) + 1 first level spell slot (negligible cost, or 1000 if you think that Pearl of Power is a good magic item)- this is the last 1-2k
Total: +4 to hit, +6 damage, +2 to wis related powers (think Stun Fist DC), +12 HP, +3 Fort save, +3 Ref Save, +4 Will Save, +13 AC

Vow of Poverty:
+4 enhancement to Str, +2 enhancement to Dex, +11 in straight AC bonuses- upped to +12 from Dex bonus. +2 exalted strike, so +4 to attack and damage counting strength +2d6 holy damage per hit vs. evil and +2 DC on stunning fist. +1 to Fort save, +2 to Ref Save, +1 to Will Save, DR 5/magic, Mind Shielding, Endure Elements, Greater Sustenance

Holy Ki Strike, Fists of the Heavens, other exalted feats that don’t do that much at this level but shouldn’t be ignored entirely. You need 15 Cha for the above, so let’s say that this difference gives the other monk +2 Str between starting ability scores and level-increases (it is probably more, since monks usually don’t use Cha at all)

Comparing the two, we get that Vow of Poverty is:
Even to hit, +5 to damage against evil creatures (-2 dmg otherwise): this is a big advantage for the Vow of Poverty monk, since Holy Ki Strike can’t be duplicated easily with magic and Mighty Fists is a costly ability. Of course, this is only against evil.
Down 1 point of AC, more against touch attacks, but not subject to dispel on mage armor
Equal on Stun DC vs. evil opponents, down on other Wisdom-related abilities, -1 stunning fist/day
-2 Fort save, -1 Reflex Save, -3 Will Save
-12 HP
Mind Shielding, Endure Elements, DR 5/magic, Greater Sustenance

So in return for slightly worse armor class, worse HP, and worse saves, you get a character who does more 5 more damage a hit against evil opponents and has a couple of other abilities. Note that if I did this comparison at “12 and a half” level characters, the other character would gain thousands of GP, while the vow of poverty character would gain nothing.

 

[frankthedm]

Don't forget to price each item as if the equipment was indestructable.

 

[Elric]

I don't think that having indestructable equipment is particularly relevant. How often do DMs destroy your stuff? Even if they do, since there are treasure guidelines per level, they just have to give you more items to make up for the ones that they destroyed.

Always on is a nice plus- no need to remove your armor to sleep at night, but the other monk wouldn't have that problem either.

Overall, it seems more likely that your character will have too much gold worth of magic items at a given time (because the DM gives the bad guy a really cool item that the PCs take from his dead body). Having too few GP because your items get destroyed is just rare.

 

[frankthedm]

I don't think that having indestructable equipment is particularly relevant. How often do DMs destroy your stuff? Even if they do, since there are treasure guidelines per level, they just have to give you more items to make up for the ones that they destroyed.

What video game are you playing?

 

[Scion]

What video game are you playing?

That is more than a bit overly harsh dont you think?

How many different ways are there to destory a ring? armor? boots? cape? Not a whole lot, especially while being worn. Disjunction is one of the few ways, and most dm's wouldnt use that from the sheer brokeness of it (for low, mid, high, and epic level of play).

Even failing that, the game assumes characters of a certain wealth level. If you lose most/all of your equipment then you are way way down in power. Plus it should be replenished in some way.

The video game reference is still off though, careful with the mudslinging please Just back it up with a few things if you will.

 

[Olive]

That is more than a bit overly harsh dont you think?

I think that the idea of a DM destroying a PCs items and then simply replacing the destroyed items is pretty video game sounding myself...

 

[Scion]

All right then, so if your 18th level pc's lose all of their gear then for the rest of the game they have no gear? good job, remind me not to play in your game. personally I like my high level characters to actually have gear.

No one said to simply replace them, but it is assumed that they will be replaced. That isnt the same thing, nor even close. A character who has only 1% of their wealth for their level will NOT be on the same power curve agreed? Fine then, enough said, eventually they will have the right level of gear again. If eventually they have the same amount of gear again then it has been replenished. Simple.