D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

[DND_Reborn]

UPDATE: added necrotic damage to each of Vecna's attacks with Afterthought against Egar on Vecna's last turn (+16 additional damage).

 

[Mistwell]

Yep, @Mistwell posted about this on page 14 I think. It has been debunked (slightly) by myself and others. His math is off a bit, damage is closer to 130 per PC, so doubled might kill Vecna, but not on average.

Your debunking was incorrect and it would have been wiser probably to ask Treantmonk yourself (a user here) than just claim it's wrong. Here is his response:

"They are mistaken, you wouldn't apply the 0.55 to arcane shot because you are attacking 8 times and you apply the shot after hitting, so as long as you hit twice, you get 2 arcane shots, no to hit chance required. The lucky feat application is also correct. With 8 shots you're going to miss with almost half of them, so you can basically get another 11 damage on average for each lucky point spent."

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I have zero issue with a DM fluffing Vecna as having some kind of unwritten ability to -know- when someone he can see is casting a spell (even when there is no indication the creature is casting a spell, on account of there being no components involved and the caster simply having to think about the spell).

For example:

''Vecna can sense the ebbs and flows of magic. He always knows when a creature he can see is casting a spell, even if that spell lacks any components and is done purely by thought'.

I'm just saying that -as written- he doesnt have that ability. He can ID a spell as its being cast with perfect accuracy (and zero action usage), but he still needs to know a spell is being cast, and he can counter a spell as it's being cast but he still needs to know a spell is being cast.

I'd be inclined to give him the above ability, while also having a nearby (hidden) minion with Warding Bond cast on Vecna, and also giving him Shield (at will) and decking him out in appropriate magical gear.

Gotcha. So it's that you disagree that the wording of his counterspell implies that he doesn't need to know. "Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell" (Which suggests that the creature just needs to be doing it, not that he needs to see the VSM as it happens).

 

[Flamestrike]

If I were to run the encounter for High Level PCs, Id certainly have Kas with Vecna (this is pre Vecna's hand being cut off remember).

A Vampire Oathbreaker Paladin type, with Warding Bond cast on Vecna, and wielding (a lesser version) of his Sword.

 

[Flamestrike]

Your debunking was incorrect and it would have been wiser probably to ask Treantmonk yourself (a user here) than just claim it's wrong. Here is his response:

"They are mistaken, you wouldn't apply the 0.55 to arcane shot because you are attacking 8 times and you apply the shot after hitting, so as long as you hit twice, you get 2 arcane shots, no to hit chance required. The lucky feat application is also correct. With 8 shots you're going to miss with almost half of them, so you can basically get another 11 damage on average for each lucky point spent."

That's wrong, because what if you miss with all 8 shots, or only hit once?

 

[Mistwell]

Vevna can teleport as a reaction to being hit. Behind full cover.

So Fighter 1 has his turn, and Vecna teleports after getting hit with arrow 1. The rest miss (they didnt take seeking arrow). Rinse and repeat for Fighter 2.

His DPR calculations had him using lucky to grant 3 extra hits, and he didnt divide his special arrow DPR by his hit probability and he factored in all damage with his crit DPR (and not just dice).

1. WOTC gives instruction on how to play Vecna in a video they published. He's following the instructions for how to play Vecna from that video in terms of Vecna's tactics.
2. He can only teleport to a spot he can see with that ability. There is a room listed in the adventure for Vecna. As far as I can tell, there is nowhere for Vecna to teleport behind cover which Vecna can see from the spot he starts. He could maybe move behind cover on his turn, but he never gets a turn.
3. You are incorrect all of the DPR calculation, see above response where I quote Treantmonk's response to this. And his response checks out. There is no dividing the special arrows (they only trigger on a hit) and lucky isn't granting three extra hits just 11 HP average damage which comports with the math. The crit part is a new issue, but I am 99% sure if you ask Treantmonk you will find he has an explanation and you're wrong on that too (in fact I do think he shows the crits are only applying to dice - I mean, he does this essentially for a living and has for years now, and has tons and tons of optimizers check his math).

 

[Mistwell]

That's wrong, because what if you miss with all 8 shots, or only hit once?

He's giving you an average. Obviously. But I am pretty sure you knew that. I mean yes it's theoretically possible you miss will all 8 attacks with 55% chance to hit plus three advantages on 8 of those, but it's also theoretically possibly you hit and crit with all 8 of those. When discussing this kind of thing, you always use an average. Which is what he used. That's an average type archer fighter doing average type damage with their average type tactics, and killing Vecna before Vecna even gets a turn. It's fair to say Vecna is probably underpowered given that result.

 

[Flamestrike]

Gotcha. So it's that you disagree that the wording of his counterspell implies that he doesn't need to know. "Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell" (Which suggests that the creature just needs to be doing it, not that he needs to see the VSM as it happens).

No, I dont agree it implies anything of the sort.

I agree a DM could rule that it does, but the ability as written doesnt imply anything of the sort.

If a creature is written having the ability to use a reaction in response to 'a creature it can see doing X' the creature must be able to know that the creature is doing 'X'.

The reaction itself doesnt grant the ability to know that the creature is doing 'X' (unless it states it grants such an ability).

A PC doesnt magically gain the ability to read minds when he readies an action to 'attack the first creature that thinks about harming me'.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Your debunking was incorrect and it would have been wiser probably to ask Treantmonk yourself (a user here) than just claim it's wrong. Here is his response:

"They are mistaken, you wouldn't apply the 0.55 to arcane shot because you are attacking 8 times and you apply the shot after hitting, so as long as you hit twice, you get 2 arcane shots, no to hit chance required. The lucky feat application is also correct. With 8 shots you're going to miss with almost half of them, so you can basically get another 11 damage on average for each lucky point spent."

He is wrong. The average damage is 132.5, not 149. Lucky doesn't apply to the math the way it works and Arcane Shot is once per turn. Action surge gives another action, not an turn, so no additional arcane shot. He applied it twice.

The two fighters would have a 45.7% to defeat Vecna in the simulation he ran.

 

[Flamestrike]

1. WOTC gives instruction on how to play Vecna in a video they published. He's following the instructions for how to play Vecna from that video in terms of Vecna's tactics.

No, he's not.

Vecna is an Int 24 Archlich, with access to scrying, a millenia of experience fighting PCs, and time to prepare.

He's not going to let a bunch of (Epic) 20th level PC Fighters (whose names and deeds are known to everyone in the Kingdom, and likely many across the Multiverse) just waltz into his lair, and shoot him in a white room from 120' away.

Thats just -NOT- going to happen, and a DM that runs him that way, isnt running Vecna as... Vecna.

2. He can only teleport to a spot he can see with that ability. There is a room listed in the adventure for Vecna. As far as I can tell, there is nowhere for Vecna to teleport behind cover which Vecna can see from the spot he starts. He could maybe move behind cover on his turn, but he never gets a turn.

Show me the room. Also explain why Vecna has to say in that room, or not alter his tactics based on the capabilities of the Party (who we can assume he has Scryed, and knows everything about).

Vecnas core schtick is knowing secrets. We can safely assume he knows the PCs are coming for him, and knows their abilities, and has planned ahead of time.

3. You are incorrect all of the DPR calculation

No, I'm not.

You cant apply crit damage to averaged DPR (because static bonuses - such as those from sharpshooter and Dex) are not multipled on a crit, and the maths triggering 2 x Arcane Shot options, presumes 2 x attacks hit.

No attacks could hit, or only one could hit. That needs to be facored into the Arcane Shot bonus damage.

Thats like adding full smite damage (not divided by hit probability) to a Paladins DPR.