D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

On the book of Vile Darkness Granting any spell. Vecna's lack of Spell slots does not matter, you can just give him what you want. Like Time Stop 1/day.

Time Stop is fitting for Vecna as well, so I say the Book if you are using it should grant that to him.
 

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Sulicius

Explorer
Ready doesn't stop the spell from being countered. Vecna just has to counter the spell when the action is readied, not when released.

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."
Yeah, which is a weird meta way of getting around one of Vecna’s abilities.
As a DM I would count releasing the spell as casting the spell. I don’t like this kind of gameplay and it rewards my players for abusing rules. I want my players to win by abusing the world, not mechanics.
It is RAW, in truth.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Yeah, which is a weird meta way of getting around one of Vecna’s abilities.
As a DM I would count releasing the spell as casting the spell. I don’t like this kind of gameplay and it rewards my players for abusing rules. I want my players to win by abusing the world, not mechanics.
It is RAW, in truth.
So the RAW has two somewhat competing notes:

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs."

You do cast the spell as a part of the readied action, that much is crystal clear. You begin that casting at that point, and not later on when you release the energy. However, now let's look at the text for counterspell:

"Reaction: A creature in the process of casting a spell"

So the text does not say "a creature that begins to cast a spell", it effectively says that at any point of the casting, you could activate the reaction.

And so the question then becomes, "Is the release of spell energy in any way part of the casting of a spell?". Your interpretation of that informs how you would rule as a DM.

I would argue that the release of the spell energy IS a part of the casting the spell. If you don't agree with that, there are a few consequences that you may not like:

  • The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
  • The spell's duration begins to tick before the spell's effect kicks in. Duration also begins after the casting of a spell, and so any rounds spent holding a spell for a readied action count against the duration of the spell.

However, ruling that casting is "ongoing" while your holding the energy also comes with its own baggage:
  • Components: You could interpret that since components are required during a spell's casting....they must be maintained during the "holding of energy". Example if you move into a silence effect and are holding a verbal spell, that spell is no longer a viable cast and you would not be able to cast it.
 
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FitzTheRuke

Legend
So the RAW has two somewhat competing notes:

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs."

You do cast the spell as a part of the readied action, that much is crystal clear. You begin that casting at that point, and not later on when you release the energy. However, now let's look at the text for counterspell:

"Reaction: A creature in the process of casting a spell"

So the text does not say "a creature that begins to cast a spell", it effectively says that at any point of the casting, you could activate the reaction.

And so the question then becomes, "Is the release of spell energy in any way part of the casting of a spell?". Your interpretation of that informs how you would rule as a DM.

I would argue that the release of the spell energy IS a part of the casting the spell. If you don't agree with that, there are a few consequences that you may not like:

  • The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
  • The spell's duration begins to tick before the spell's effect kicks in. Duration also begins after the casting of a spell, and so any rounds spent holding a spell for a readied action count against the duration of the spell.

However, ruling that casting is "ongoing" while your holding the energy also comes with its own baggage:
  • Components: You could interpret that since components are required during a spell's casting....they must be maintained during the "holding of energy". Example if you move into a silence effect and are holding a verbal spell, that spell is no longer a viable cast and you would not be able to cast it.
I agree with all of this. As a DM, I'm very "let them do as they like" except when it comes to cheese. I mean, if a player really cares that they "get away with" their cheezy trick, I'll probably shrug and let them do it (at least during the game) but I'll argue against it (when arguing is appropriate. Like say, here on a discussion board!)
 

The spell's target must be in range at the time you ready a spell. Since a spell's target is required to be in the range at the time of casting, if you rule that casting is "concluded" before the release of energy step, then in theory the only way the spell can function is if your ultimate target is already in range, and if its a target, must be in line of sight and effect.
Alternatively, could you Ready a "touch" spell when you're next to the target, then "release the energy" when the readied action is triggered, regardless of how far away the target now is. Is that how we're ruling it?
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Alternatively, could you Ready a "touch" spell when you're next to the target, then "release the energy" when the readied action is triggered, regardless of how far away the target now is. Is that how we're ruling it?
Of course that's not how we're ruling it. This is the point, I believe, that Stalker0 is trying to make. You're either 1) Still casting the spell (and therefore it can be countered); or 2) weird things happen.
 


Sulicius

Explorer
Sorry, I don’t mean to start a rules discussion. I think the readying of the spell to counteract counterspell is RAW and can be allowed for sure.

I will talk about it with my players and see if they are attached to this strategy, but otherwise I will just ban it from my table personally. I think it’s healthier for play at my table.

I rarely use counterspell anyway.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I agree with all of this. As a DM, I'm very "let them do as they like" except when it comes to cheese. I mean, if a player really cares that they "get away with" their cheezy trick, I'll probably shrug and let them do it (at least during the game) but I'll argue against it (when arguing is appropriate. Like say, here on a discussion board!)
That's it! Now Kaligan is going to summon cheese. Limburger I say! Then I can see which smells worse. The cheese or the giants.
 


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