D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

[Mort]

I don’t think the templating in 5e is as consistent as you give it credit for here.

Perhaps,

But in this case Vecna's wording, unlike Counter-spell, does not mandate he know the spell is being cast, just that he see the caster at the time that it is.

Easiest way to reconcile this: he ALWAYS knows if a spell is being cast when he can see the caster (whether there are actual signs or not). AND, IMO, this makes perfect sense for Vecna.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I am fine with considering round 1 over. The Grapple plus anti magic field is a pretty hard counter.

 

[Charlaquin]

I totally agree with you that one can't infer anything from a change in wording. It can literally be that the writer thought they were typing the exact same thing as counterspell and thew in an extra word. It's not surprising to me that we here can use something as silly as that to argue about it!

If it was Magic: the Gathering you totally could, because that game has very specific and very consistent templating rules. 4e kinda did too (though not as much as MtG) but 5e doesn’t.

 

[Flamestrike]

Or, like I said before, scrunching up your face and concentrating while "willing" the spell into existence.

Why cant I normal counterspell when that happens? The tell is the same as it is for Vecna.

Unless you know a spell is being cast by a creature, you cant counterspell it, and Vecna cant Dread counter it.s There is no trigger to do so.

If you had the ability to know a spell is being cast, even when it lacks any components, we could definitely talk.

 

[Charlaquin]

Perhaps,

But in this case Vecna's wording, unlike Counter-spell, does not mandate he know the spell is being cast, just that he see the caster at the time that it is.

Easiest way to reconcile this: he ALWAYS knows if a spell is being cast when he can see the caster (whether there are actual signs or not). AND, IMO, this makes perfect sense for Vecna.

Again, if we agree he needs to know it’s being cast, but you say he always knows whereas I don’t think the wording implies that, that’s good enough for me.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because otherwise it makes no sense to change the wording of Counter-spell.

So you're relying on some unspoken designers intent that they meant for this ability to also grant Vecna an adjacent but separate ability to always know when a creature he can see is casting a spell?

If I accept that was the designers intent (to give Vecna the ability to know whenever a creature is casting a spell, even when that spell lacks any components and is cast with Subtle spell), then sure, but I don't accept that.

I see nothing in the ability that provides Vecna any special power to 'automatically and unerringly know when a creature he can see is casting a spell, even when that spell lacks any components and is cast Subtly'.

. The new wording does not require he know the spell is cast.

It doesnt need to. Due to the rule on Reactions and Triggers, the rule is he needs to know a spell is being cast before he can use the ability.

Short of any specific rule that applies to him that expressly says he doesnt need to know (or that he always knows), he needs some way to know.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

So you're relying on some unspoken designers intent that they meant for this ability to also grant Vecna an adjacent but separate ability to always know when a creature he can see is casting a spell?

Yes cause he’s Vecna.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Here you go...

Round 5:

Malek takes out a torch (free) and flint/steel (use an object).
Hjalman uses his attack to disarm Vecna, rolling 1,3+10= 13 vs. Vecna DEX (Acrobatic) 2+3 = 5. He uses his free intereaction to pick up the dagger.
Egar disengages and steps back 5 feet.
Vecna attempts to escape the grapples. He rolls totals of 16 and 7 vs. Hjalman's 21 and Leon's 19, failing against both.
Leon moves south of Vecna and attacks twice with his IDS/sword.
He rolls 8,9+9 = 18 and 20,10+9 = 29 (CRIT), for 1 and 6 radiant damage.

Round 6:

Malek uses his action to light his torch.
Hjalman tosses Afterthought to Egar (free) and uses his action to light his torch.
Egar picks up the dagger and taunts Vecna with it, laughing.
Vecna attempts to escape the grapples. He rolls totals of 15 and 19 vs. Hjalman's 27 and Leon's 18, escaping Leon's grasp but still grappled by Hjalman.
Leon uses his attack to grapple again (20 total vs. Vecna's 7). He attacks with his IDS/sword, missing (totals 14 and 17).

Round 7:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (8 and 13).
Hjalman attacks with his burning torch, missing (5 and 12) and then hitting (20 and 17) for 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna attempts to escape the grapples. He rolls totals of 16 and 7 vs. Hjalman's 10 and Leon's 13, escaping Hjalman's grasp but still grappled by Leon.
Leon attacks twice with IDS/sword, hitting (21,28) once and missing (13,11) once, dealing 7 radiant damage.

Round 8:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (17 and 3).
Hjalman hits (16,24 CRIT and 15,19) twice, for 3 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (4,23) vs. (19,28), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting once (19,25) and missing once (14,13), dealing 7 radiant damage again.

Round 9:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, hitting (20,16) for 2 fire damage.
Hjalman misses once (7,6) and hits once (17,21) for 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (20,17) vs. (25,20), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting twice (23,25 and 11,22), dealing 13 radiant damage.

Round 10:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, hitting (8,18) for 1 fire damage.
Hjalman hits once (20,19) and misses once (7,13) for 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (21,21) vs. (26,23), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting (18,22) and missing (16,11), dealing 6 radiant damage.

Round 11:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (9,2).
Hjalman hits twice (18,8 and 22,18) for 2 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (4,15) vs. (27,26), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting twice (26,19 and 12,23), dealing 11 radiant damage.

Round 12:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (11,2).
Hjalman misses twice (12,15 and 17,15).
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (6,10) vs. (28,29), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting twice (20,21 and 18,26), dealing 8 radiant damage.

Round 13:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, hitting (18,8) for 1 fire damage.
Hjalman hits (20,6) and misses (10,9), for 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (7,17) vs. (29,19), failing both.
Leon attacks, hitting twice (28,23 and 28,15), dealing 8 radiant damage.

Round 14:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (4,2).
Hjalman misses twice (14,4 and 6,15).
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (9,23) vs. (13,19), escaping from Leon's grasp.
Leon fails to grapple twice! (10 vs. Vecna's 18 and 12 vs. Vecna' 18).

Round 15:

Malek fails to grapple (14 vs. Vecna's 14).
Hjalman hits twice (22,13 and 12,21), dealing 2 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently, getting ready to cast again if Vecna escapes.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (13) vs. (16), as Hjalman barely holds him down! Vecna curses!!
Leon grapples again (29 vs. Vecna's 21), and attacks with his IDS/sword, hitting (16,27) for 7 radiant damage.

Round 16:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (5,6).
Hjalman misses twice (13,5 and 17,11) with his torch.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (5,9) vs. (22,23), failing both.
Leon misses (11,13) and hits (11,18), dealing 8 radiant damage.

Round 17:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (11,15).
Hjalman misses twice (9,14 and 14,14) with his torch.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (11,4) vs. (21,20), failing both.
Leon hits twice (21,16 and 25,25), dealing 5 radiant damage.

Round 18:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (5,9).
Hjalman hits (20,6) and misses (7,4), dealing 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (22,22) vs. (27,11), escaping from Leon again!
Leon grapples (23 vs. Vecna's 12) and attacks with his IDS/sword, missing (13,12).

Round 19:

Malek attacks with his burning torch, missing (13,5).
Hjalman hits (21,16) and misses (8,9), dealing 1 fire damage.
Egar takes watches intently.
Vecna rolls to escape grapple (4,22) vs. (13,26), failing both.
Leon hits twice (28,18 and 12,23), dealing 5 radiant damage!!!

VECNA IS DEFEATED!!!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

And it only took just short of 20 rounds.


For the second fight should the level be 17 or 16. I was thinking of going down 3 levels at a time or would four levels be better.

 

[Smythe the Bard]

"In the name of the Gods, impure souls of the living dead shall be banished into eternal damnation. Amen."