Vulgar language in fantasy

[Croesus]

I like the way BSG and Starwars have handled it by creating their own curses. Starwars has Sithspawn or whatever, BSG has Frack (which I use a whole lot myself).

Yep, that works for me too. Which makes me suspect a significant part of my dislike for vulgarity in novels is based on how I was raised. If the characters don't use our "bad" words, it's somehow easier to overlook. And to my ear, it's not so jarring - they don't sound like a co-worker at the office, or the guy at the neighborhood convenience store.

 

[Mallus]

In novels, as others have said, I find it rather jarring, pulling me out of the story.

I have opposite reaction; having fantasy (or SF) characters use everyday speech --like profanity-- makes them more believable to me.

In addition, I usually read for escapism - the last thing I want in those instances is too much ugliness from real life.

And yet fantasy stories are rife with bloody violence, diabolism, and loving depictions of war at the Medieval level of technology. Is that ugliness somehow more palatable? Why?

Lastly, most of the time when I encounter such language and situations in novels, the authors do so in an incredibly juvenile manner.

Profanity has been found in just about every segment of the literature I'm familiar with (initially this involved a few a high-profile court cases, but still...) for the past 75 or so years, including many of the 20th Century greats. Perhaps you should try reading some different books?

IMO, too many people equate vulgarity with maturity.

By 'people' do you mean 'teenagers'?

 

[Jeysie]

In all honesty, I don't think that sort of thing is nearly as damaging as everyone seems to be afraid of, and also it just seems like a poor excuse to try and neuter things meant for adults (by which I mean people in their late teens onward) just because kids might happen to be exposed to them.

Being someone who learned almost every curse word and dirty joke she knows by the age of ten, despite growing up with respectable parents and mainly middle-class surroundings, I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to think I ended up being fairly well-mannered regardless.

Not that I don't find the desire to protect children admirable... just that I know from experience they're not as fragile as we think they are.

Back on the topic at hand, I fall into the "swearing makes it seem more realistic" camp. Overdoing it on the swearing is a turn-off, but it's difficult to pull off euphemisms without making it sound cheesy and/or contrived.

Peace & Luv, Liz

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

If you're assuming the novel is "translated" into English, why is "s---" or "f---" any more jarring than "house" or "windmill"? In both cases, it's purely an issue of the author "translating" a nonexistant language into terms the reader can understand.

It's the difference between a literal translation and an idiomatic one, maybe. Or like reading a novel in your native language from a hundred years ago. Same language, but the slang and idioms and structure are different. Remember this line from The Scarlet Letter -- "Behold...there is the woman of the scarlet letter...come, therefore, and let us fling mud at her." Still English, but odd-sounding to modern ears. Similarly, when a fantasy novel goes to such great lengths to inject different words and cultures and so forth, resorting to modern slang in any form is jarring, I think. It's just that profanity is the most likely. I don't find it objectionable on puritanical grounds (I'm the guy that got a detention in 4th grade for reading The Exorcist in class. At a Catholic school, no less).

That said, it's not a iron-clad rule. The Black Company books and Thieve's World come to mind. There the grim and gritty nature of the world made the grim and gritty language seem natural.

 

[Michael Tree]

I don't like that the language in most fantasy books has been sanitized, but I find that using modern english swearwords in fantasy settings sometimes kills the verisimilitude for me. It's jarring unless it's done well, because it usuallly comes out sounding like modern idiom or slang.

It doesn't help that English has such a paucity of curses. You just can't curse well in English. It's boring. You can use the F word, or the S word, maybe the C word or half a dozen lesser words. Compare this to Spanish, or old english. A Spanish speaking friend of mine can go on for a good two or three minutes in spanish without repeating the same profanity twice. You can get creative in English, but there are few standard profanities aside from a handful of words associated with bodily functions.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

I find that so many are complaining about 'modern' English swear words being translations from fantasy languages hilarious. They've been around pretty much since English was invented! There is nothing modern about them!

On the other hand, as much of a fan of Doc Smith's writing as I am, every time he has the hero of the Lensmen books exclaim something like: "Holy Klono's gadolinium guts and carballoy intestines!" I wince in embarrassment. (But I don't find it at all surprising that it was a bunch of 13-16 year old fans who conned him into using such language.)

 

[Pants]

Don't mind it at all really.

Sometimes it's appropriate sometimes it's not, depends on the writer and the novel being written.

 

[Croesus]

Profanity has been found in just about every segment of the literature I'm familiar with (initially this involved a few a high-profile court cases, but still...) for the past 75 or so years, including many of the 20th Century greats. Perhaps you should try reading some different books?

For me, it all depends on how it's used. As I said above, I've started too many novels where the author seems to use vulgarity for the wrong reasons (too narrow a command of the English language, shock value, believing it adds an air of "adultness" to the story, and so on).

As for the books I read, I read 50-60 books a year, 3/4 nonfiction. There's plenty of real life in those, so I tend to prefer more escapist material in my fiction. That said, I do believe some authors can write stories that deal with disturbing themes and language well - I just also believe most authors can't (or don't).

C.S. Friedman I would recommend. Larry Niven. Orson Scott Card. Steven Brust. Stephen Donaldson. All have used vulgarity and/or disturbing themes, but handled them adeptly. To me, they shine in a sea of dreck.

By 'people' do you mean 'teenagers'?

Nope. I mean people, as in people of all ages, backgrounds, and both genders.

 

[Tonguez]

I don't see the necessity of using the terms in any literature let along fantasy literature. Language is complex enough to say anything without resorting to vulgarity

Of course there is also an issue of culture. For instance in my native language the two worst profanities translate as "Your Brains!" and "Boiled head!". Culturally referring about bodily functions and/or coitus is quite neutral, odd maybe, but not vulgar.
Probably the closest thing to English vulgarity translates to "Your anus!" and is an interjection similar to english "Whatever" or as I like to tansklate it "Shut up dude, You're talking out of your bum"

So perhaps Conan simply comes from a culture where feces is just brown and sticky and tupping is what rams do with ewes. Besides saying "By Croms shaggy crotch" is so much more evocative than simply saying "Holy Fooking Shete"

 

[Minicol]

I'm curious. A discussion on another forum prompted this statement:



What do you think? I mean, people swear in real life, and few of them go to the effort to come up with creative but non-vulgar curses, so why is it so rare to see vulgar language in fantasy compared to other genres? Sure, the occasional "By Crom!" is fair, but I think Conan had to have some word in his vocabulary for situations when we would just exclaim, "Holy s***!" or "We are so f***ed."

If you were reading a fantasy novel and someone used the same sorts of swear words we use in our everyday life, what would you think? (Assume that the curses are being used in a reasonable way, and not in some Tarantino-esque marathon of obscenities.)

I agree with you.
Some characters should be more likely to use vulgarity than some others though.
Especially if you talk about uneducated/brutish/thuggish types.
Take a look at the thieves' world novel books : you may not like them, but the authors have developed a local slang for the city of Sanctuary, which is quite interesting.