Vulgar language in fantasy

[RangerWickett]

I'm curious. A discussion on another forum prompted this statement:

The reason f*** (and many obscenities) sounds out of place in fantasy novels is genre prudishness, not some actual historical reason.

There is absolutely no reason why "sh**" would be acceptable but "f***" would not except that the fantasy genre is puerile and childish in its tastes.

What do you think? I mean, people swear in real life, and few of them go to the effort to come up with creative but non-vulgar curses, so why is it so rare to see vulgar language in fantasy compared to other genres? Sure, the occasional "By Crom!" is fair, but I think Conan had to have some word in his vocabulary for situations when we would just exclaim, "Holy s***!" or "We are so f***ed."

If you were reading a fantasy novel and someone used the same sorts of swear words we use in our everyday life, what would you think? (Assume that the curses are being used in a reasonable way, and not in some Tarantino-esque marathon of obscenities.)

 

[Mallus]

If you were reading a fantasy novel and someone used the same sorts of swear words we use in our everyday life, what would you think?

I'm all for the increased usage of real-world vulgarities in fantasy literature. So much of it sounds unnecessarily neutered to me, particularly when you consider how frequently the protagonists are in life-and-death situations. "By Crom" my *ss. More fantasy heroes should talk like soldiers. Besides, it's not like vulgar, scatological, or otherwise inflammatory speech is a recent invention.

I'm won't touch the 'genre is puerile' issue --not now, at least-- but I do think the general aversion to salty language (and sex, for that matter) in fantasy fiction is the product of the genre being seen (both inside and outside of the readership) as an outgrowth of juvenile fiction, or even another species of juvenile fiction.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Personally I don't really like swearing in fantasy books using the current swears of our society. For the most part I feel it is unneccesary. I am more accepting in other genres, but I still don't really like it, just like I don't like graphic sex or rape scenes in my books either. Maybe it makes me puerile or just a prude, but that is the way it is.

Of course one reason I don't like it is that I have an eight-year old daughter who is really good at reading over my shoulder. I don't need her asking what those words are just yet.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm all for it, mostly because I think authors should be able to write whatever they want without any form of censorship being applied, even if it is just the social standards of what people expect. If using expletives seems to make more sense in the context of the story, or better conveys what the writer has in mind, then they should use them.

That said, I know there's no historical reason for it, but using the "big two" curse words in the forms of expletives of anger seems like a modern (or even post-modern) trope. Having a fantasy hero glare at the villain and say "F--- you" just seems out of place because it feels like darker, more hardcore writing that's set in modern times has co-opted that already. It doesn't sound out of place to hear something like that being said in an Anita Blake novel, but it'd sound slightly odd if you had Gord the Rogue say it.

As an aside, Thornir, I can understand your position, but it seems like the "protect the children!" stance is becoming over-used. I see so much about books, movies, video games, etc. all being maligned because kids might be exposed to them. In all honesty, I don't think that sort of thing is nearly as damaging as everyone seems to be afraid of, and also it just seems like a poor excuse to try and neuter things meant for adults (by which I mean people in their late teens onward) just because kids might happen to be exposed to them.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Assuming it's appropriate for the target audience, I have no more objection to seeing the "f-word" or "s-word" in a fantasy novel than I have with seeing the words "the" or "bread."

We're reading the book in English, no matter what language the characters might "really" be speaking, so the author should use English. No blatantly modern slang, but beyond that, everything goes.

 

[RangerWickett]

Gord the Rogue, maybe, would not be cursing, but I would find it completely appropriate if Conan was about to fight a villain, and the villain gave his diabolical monologue, and Conan (who is not good with words) replied with a hearty "F--- you."

Actually, I think this particular trend in my writing might be due to Bobby Shaftoe from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Maybe I'm wierd, but...

When I'm reading fantasy (and usually science-fiction that's not near-future Earth, for that matter), I have this mindset that the characters are speaking their own languages and what I'm reading is a kind of translation. I mean, the places are named differently, the books are usually rife with internal world-specific terms (animals, for example), and so forth. So I find the intrusion of modern English swearing to be jarring. Not as bad as hearing Conan saying 'Dude, we are so hosed. Game over, man.' but in a similar vein. Mentally I accept that 'By Crom' is really 'gosh darnit' but hearing the former is in-character, and the latter wouldn't be.

 

[Croesus]

If you were reading a fantasy novel and someone used the same sorts of swear words we use in our everyday life, what would you think? (Assume that the curses are being used in a reasonable way, and not in some Tarantino-esque marathon of obscenities.)

I can't stand it, but I don't like vulgarity in real life either. I prefer to be around people who can express themselves adequately without such crutches.

In novels, as others have said, I find it rather jarring, pulling me out of the story. In addition, I usually read for escapism - the last thing I want in those instances is too much ugliness from real life. Lastly, most of the time when I encounter such language and situations in novels, the authors do so in an incredibly juvenile manner. Some of the stuff I've read has left me convinced the author is a severely disturbed individual.

That said, there are a (very) few authors who, IMO, have handled adult situations well, in a thoughtful and mature manner. One thing I notice about those authors is that vulgarity and offensive material is not pervasive in the book, is not used simply to shock, is part of truly multi-dimensional characters, etc.

IMO, too many people equate vulgarity with maturity. In my experience, it's too often the opposite.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

I like the way BSG and Starwars have handled it by creating their own curses. Starwars has Sithspawn or whatever, BSG has Frack (which I use a whole lot myself).

 

[Mouseferatu]

See, I find this:

When I'm reading fantasy (and usually science-fiction that's not near-future Earth, for that matter), I have this mindset that the characters are speaking their own languages and what I'm reading is a kind of translation. I mean, the places are named differently, the books are usually rife with internal world-specific terms (animals, for example), and so forth.

Directly contradicts this:

So I find the intrusion of modern English swearing to be jarring.

If you're assuming the novel is "translated" into English, why is "s---" or "f---" any more jarring than "house" or "windmill"? In both cases, it's purely an issue of the author "translating" a nonexistant language into terms the reader can understand.