Wait, so 7/8/9th level spells weren't in OD&D?

[MoogleEmpMog]

Honestly, I think a lot of the problems people have with high-level D&D owe their origins to the fact that, well, high-level D&D didn't originally exist.

For all that's changed in the game, many things - among them a lot of spells, the toughness of characters, their impact on the world (and likewise the impact of suitable opponents on the world), their phenomenal wealth, and the prevalence of save or die effects at high levels - haven't changed a lot since OD&D, and even fewer have changed since AD&D (when 10th level was Name Level and considered close to the end of most characters' careers, at least as full time adventurers).

Many people, including Gary Gygax's group, *played* all the way to high levels, but this wasn't what the game was originally designed for. Compared to the very solid low- to mid-level rules, the high-level rules were somewhat spotty and inconsistent. The rules have been clarified and expanded in later editions - but they still present a very different world, and a very different GAME, than low-level play would.

I don't think D&D necessarily scales all that well, because it originally didn't have to. That's where we get the 'every x levels, the gameplay changes' model we have today. That's also why I advocate much, much more granularity in advancement, so that characters can improve mechanically on a regular basis without significantly changing what TYPE of game you're playing.

 

[Ry]

So it sounds like everybody's saying that if I were to... say... cap my game at 12th level (which is what I'm planning on) I'll still be able to get that full-bodied warm, happy D&D feeling.

 

[T. Foster]

Do mages get 6th level spells at 11th level or 12th in 3E? If the former, then yeah 12th level is probably a good cap. If the latter you might want to go a little higher (14th maybe, like the old Expert set) in order to give them a chance to play a bit with their shiny 6th level toys before the game ends.

 

[Ry]

Wizards get 6th level spells at 11th, Sorcerers get 6th level spells at 12th.

 

[Melan]

So it sounds like everybody's saying that if I were to... say... cap my game at 12th level (which is what I'm planning on) I'll still be able to get that full-bodied warm, happy D&D feeling.

Yes. I have had only one campaign go above that, with a single PC reaching 14th level, after which he became a god and the whole group was retired. I always viewed 10th+ level PCs as extremely powerful beings - like Heracles or Achilles, whom I'd stat as 15th and 12th level fighters, respectively. I don't want to say this is the only possible model of "proper" D&D - the others work pretty well - but it is one I have had a lot of success with during my gaming carreer.

Also, +3 swords are freaking powerful. If you have a +3 sword, you can hit foes as well as someone who is three levels above you, although you don't have as many hit points. It means even more if you are a cleric - this ties nicely into the relative scarcity of magical maces and flails, although I am not sure Gary thought the issue through.

 

[jdrakeh]

not legally.

Supplement II Blackmoor is available legal like.

edit: http://www.jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/bmc.html

The original Chainmail and all of the OD&D supplements are available in PDF format from RPGNow (search for them by name). I could not, however, find the core three rule books.

 

[Razz]

I could never restrict magic to 5th level. It's unrealistic to put a cap. With magic, there is no limit.

And you'll get angry players when they can't kill with a word or gate in mighty demons like "other D&D players" can. You get laughed at by fellow gamers when you tell them that your 20th-level wizard can't cast chain lightning or look really cool blasting opponents with a meteor swarm.

Unless the players prefer it that way. Must be some really old players, who like their lightning bolts to not be so bright and their fireballs to simply be like throwing a gasoline-soaked tennis ball. Cause I couldn't live without my D&D games having some semblance of legendary, over-the-top, anime-like, qualities to it. Neither could my players. Gotta live in the fast lane with gaming now.

It'll really make you feel bad when your players watch a violent Saturday morning cartoon and turn to you and say,"This corky cartoon has a character that can do this, but my 15th-level sorceror can never pull it off?"

 

[S'mon]

I could never restrict magic to 5th level. It's unrealistic to put a cap. With magic, there is no limit.

So you have 58th level spells in your game? 345th level spells? There already is a cap - 9th level, which has been the official cap for Wizard spells for around 30 years, and the cap for Cleric spells for 6.5 years.

 

[Herobizkit]

Frank Mentzer's version of Basic, Expert, Companions, and Masters makes up the RC.

that ain't OD&D.

No, it's far far better. *runs and hides*

[hijack] Seriously, though. OD&D aside, the RC is pretty much everything today's Player's Handbook and DM's Guide should be. I mean, it's got everything from levels 1-36 AND rules for becoming an Immortal (God/dess) AND has rules for building and running your own little kingdom.

Throw in the old-school Gazetteers as your "campaign setting" and IMO you have everything you need for that old-school feel. [/hijack]

 

[MrFilthyIke]

No, it's far far better. *runs and hides*

[hijack] Seriously, though. OD&D aside, the RC is pretty much everything today's Player's Handbook and DM's Guide should be. I mean, it's got everything from levels 1-36 AND rules for becoming an Immortal (God/dess) AND has rules for building and running your own little kingdom.

Throw in the old-school Gazetteers as your "campaign setting" and IMO you have everything you need for that old-school feel. [/hijack]

Amen. BECMI for life.