Wands as Weapons.

[Kemrain]

In the game I play in, my character has recently found a very special wand. It counts as a ranged weapon, not a spell completion item, and thus can be fired once per turn for each attack you can take. It has a very long range, requires a ranged touch attack, and deals 1d6 points of mixed Electric/Negitive Energy damage. However, when damage is rolled, an odd dumber on the damage dice is reduced to a 1. It has a threat range of 20, and a crit multiplier of x3. It has (seemingly) infinate charges.

So, what we have here is basically a very loud, flashey shortbow, fired one-handed, consitered light, commandword activated, with infinite ammo, that attacks with a ranged touch attack, isn't subject to Damage Reduction, but is avoidable with Energy Resistance. Is this even remotely balanced, and if so, how much should an item like this cost?

- Kemrain the Wandslinger?

 

[Pyrex]

By no definition is that a wand. I'd require the crafter to use "Craft Arms & Armor" plus "Craft Wonderous Item".

A ranged-touch attack for an average of 2.5 damage is not all that great, even if you can potentially do it 3-4 times per round.

It certainly shouldn't be worth any more than a CL 3 wand of Magic Missiles (2250gp), even when you figure it's not running out of charges.

 

[drunkmoogle]

It's not very balanced at all. Like Pyrex says, that's no wand. At least a wand requires a DC20 Use Magic Device Check.

Also, I assume it doesn't count as a weapon you need proficiency with? If that's the case, anybody can point it and say "zap." Considering the range, it probably won't matter much, as it's too weak to cause major imbalance.

It doesn't look that nasty, but put it in the hands of a rogue. Suddenly, you get a +8 to hit (and potentially sneak attack) against that awful Cleric in Full Plate. You completely negate the target's Armor and Shield to AC, something that a rogue has to beat against a fighter/cleric.

Pricing: Tough call. A +1 Brilliant Energy Halfling Crossbow (the closest thing to this) is priced at 50,000 gold. I'd price it at around 32,000 GP (price of a +4 weapon), give or take 5,000 GP.

Sorry to trample over you, Kemrain .

 

[JimAde]

In the game I play in, my character has recently found a very special wand. It counts as a ranged weapon, not a spell completion item, and thus can be fired once per turn for each attack you can take. It has a very long range, requires a ranged touch attack, and deals 1d6 points of mixed Electric/Negitive Energy damage. However, when damage is rolled, an odd dumber on the damage dice is reduced to a 1. It has a threat range of 20, and a crit multiplier of x3. It has (seemingly) infinate charges.

So, what we have here is basically a very loud, flashey shortbow, fired one-handed, consitered light, commandword activated, with infinite ammo, that attacks with a ranged touch attack, isn't subject to Damage Reduction, but is avoidable with Energy Resistance. Is this even remotely balanced, and if so, how much should an item like this cost?

- Kemrain the Wandslinger?

Why is this not subject to Damage Reduction? Is it subject to Spell Resistance? I'll agree that it's not a wand (by the D&D definition). It's a gun with infinite ammo. What is the range increment? Can you use spiffy feats like Far Shot, Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot with it? How about Improved Critical? If you are allowed to get Sneak Attack damage with it I assume these are allowed as well.

I don't really have an opinion, just asking

 

[Pyrex]

Even in the hands of a rogue it's not that powerful. They still have to get within 30' and find a way to deny the target it's dex bonus to get Sneak Attack.

Also, the weapon above is easily defeated by energy resistance, the BE Xbow isn't. Any character in their right mind would take the BE Xbow over the weapon listed above, and BE is way overcosted at that.

This item is not nearly as powerful as a +4 weapon, and shouldn't be compared to one for cost purposes.

The closest model is a use-activated at-will 1st level spell item (i.e., pull the trigger on the crossbow).

Consider the following:

Crossbow of Frost
This hand crossbow fires a Ray of Frost each time the trigger is pulled.
Cost: SpellLevel(0.5)xCasterLevel(1)xUseActivated(2000) = 1000gp

The weapon above is better enough (long range, slightly higher damage) that the base could be considered a 1st level spell (definately not good enough to be 2nd) and you get the following

Kemrain's Boomstick
Cost: SpellLevel(1)xCasterLevel(1)xUseActivated(2000) = 2000gp.

Now, granted, anyone with SR will just laugh at you but this seems plenty balanced to me given the actual effect.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Even in the hands of a rogue it's not that powerful. They still have to get within 30' and find a way to deny the target it's dex bonus to get Sneak Attack.

This item is not nearly as powerful as a +4 weapon, and shouldn't be compared to one for cost purposes.

Surprise round. Higher Initiative. Xd6 negative energy/lightning damage, almost auto-hits at later levels. You can use it prone. You don't apply a STR penalty to it. And you may use it with your normal attack routine. It's light for purposes of Two Weapon Fighting. Possibly more effective than a 3.0 Arcane Trickster hasted and quickening ray spells. What more can you ask for?

True, energy resistance hurts you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you add your sneak attack damage, then damage reduction is applied? Some of it may still trickle through.

I think my pricing is actually generous for it's potential effects. Note that I typically do overprice original items for my players, to be on the safe side.

 

[Pyrex]

In that situation how's it any better than a +1 hand crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat? Or a pair of hand crossbows with the Quick Loading property?

At higher levels any rogue is virtually guaranteed to hit a flat-footed opponent anyway.

For the same rogue with xd6 sneak attack, how it really that much more unbalanced than a handful of +1 daggers or a wand of Ray of Frost?

Also, even though you add in the SA dice before applying ER, the ER applies to each attack in 3.5, further reducing it's effectiveness.

A high-level rogue with the right feats and two of them might be a little silly sometimes (until they face any of a number of creatures who are immune to Electricity damage), but I can't imagine any PC in their right mind spending over 30k gp for one of these.

 

[Kemrain]

Reading the replies to this thread made me smile, and Kemrain's Boomstick got my coworkers to turn their heads when I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Thanks for the response, and thanks for not calling me a whacko for bringing this up.

I forgot to mention the fact that it has no range increments. If you can see it, you can target it. At no penalty. It can also be used with the Ranged Combat feats, as long as they apply (no range, so Far Shot is useless).

We've come across another weapon like this that did 2d6 Odds are One Sonic damage, and was nearly identical othrwise. Killer toy, but it was a charged item. We did manage to squeeze over 125 charges out of it, though.

In the game we play, we use Ken Hood's 3.3 Grim 'n Gritty rules, so the low damage output isn't much of a deturrant given most creatures HP are roughly equal to Con + BAB, and the effects of armor are completely ignored as it deals energy damage on a touch attack. Given that on a sneak attack, instead of bonus damage you're given a + to hit and a bonus to your threat range (and your opponent loses their Class Defense bonus if they lose their Dex Bonus) you're nearly guaranteed a hit, and the low damage isn't much of a penalty.

I'm planning to use this weapon soon against a sieging army. Given that I can attack from over a mile away, I can probably put many shots into the air before the first ones strike their targets. I don't expect this to be a valid tactic for decimating the army, but it will sow confusion, and might allow the sieged army time to prepare an assault.

So, is my GM on crack for handing this out, or what?

- Kemrain the Boomstick.

 

[drunkmoogle]

In that situation how's it any better than a +1 hand crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat? Or a pair of hand crossbows with the Quick Loading property?

At higher levels any rogue is virtually guaranteed to hit a flat-footed opponent anyway.

For the same rogue with xd6 sneak attack, how it really that much more unbalanced than a handful of +1 daggers or a wand of Ray of Frost?

Also, even though you add in the SA dice before applying ER, the ER applies to each attack in 3.5, further reducing it's effectiveness.

A high-level rogue with the right feats and two of them might be a little silly sometimes (until they face any of a number of creatures who are immune to Electricity damage), but I can't imagine any PC in their right mind spending over 30k gp for one of these.

It's the fact that it ignores Armor and Natural Armor (which BE does not do) that seperates it from other magic weapons. Touch ACs drop very low when you're flat-footed, and sometimes a monster's only defense is it's Natural Armor. Also, most mooks have hideous (<15) touch ACs and no SR/ER.

A rogue against a flat-footed opponent is NOT an auto hit at higher levels. The first attack(s [rapid shot/TWF]) is most probable, but the next sets have a noticably chance of missing. Armor and Natural Armor still play a large factor against the rogue.

A wand of [Insert Damaging Ray Spell Here] requires a UMD check, and you may only use it as a standard action. Much less appetizing than this weapon.

The scariest thing about this is the fact that you need absolutely NO investment in feats or skills (UMD) to use this to devestating effect. If you face an ER monster/wizard, you've still got all your other feats available to you, along with backup weapons.

The 30K price is based on the BE price bonus (+4). Perhaps overpriced, but thats what BE goes for. Shelling out 30K for this is probably a bad idea, akin to placing all your eggs in one basket. If you've got the money to burn, this may be worth it. If it's given to you, a rogue will probably never sell it, as it promises round full of d6 rolls.

 

[Pyrex]

You've got a point there about the touch attacks, but you can still get the same effect for a whole lot cheaper by Quick Drawing Acid vials. (which ignore SR, and as silly as I admit it is, they aren't disallowed from benefitting from SA dice)

...attack from over a mile away...

Er, that is just a little silly. Even combining a Composite Longbow of Distance with the Far Shot feat doesn't get you that much range...