D&D 5E Want a better Rogue? Build a Wizard. Or why play a Rogue?

[Dausuul]

You know that you can't cast knock once silence is in place, don't you?

Actually you can. The knocking sound emanates from the target (i.e., the door), and the range of knock is 60 feet. So you can have the cleric* put silence on the door, and then the wizard stands outside the radius of the silence effect and casts knock.

At which point, you have expended a mere 2 second-level spell slots in order to... uh... open a door. Is that a deal, or what?

*Silence is not on the wizard's spell list. Bard is the only class that can manage both spells unassisted.

 

[MoonSong]

*Silence is not on the wizard's spell list. Bard is the only class that can manage both spells unassisted.

Well, then this is a better argument than I had?

Though a Divine Soul can also manage to do both. But Wizard, I don't see a wizard managing this alone.

 

[CleverNickName]

This is an interesting thread.

I mean, I've long thought that rogues were overrated.

Being the only stealthy person in the party is like being the only non-smoker at a party: everyone else stinks but you somehow end up looking bad. And being a skill monkey can be fun, but it's nothing special when the cleric will be casting guidance every single round on everyone within reach. Around 9th level, while everyone else in the party is doing cool tricks like wildshaping into bears, calling lightning, exploding fireballs, and raising the dead, you get to disengage and metagame over board position. "No, you should stand over here so that I can flank!"

But also, wizards make terrible rogues.

I mean yes, you can do everything a rogue can do...but it comes at the cost of doing those cool tricks that I was just describing. You can try to offset this with scrolls and rings of spell storing and the like, and it will become less of a deal at higher levels....but until then, you are going to find yourself whining to the DM about how there's too many traps and skill challenges in the game, or running out of magic and wishing you had rolled up something else.

Nah, I'd give them both a miss, and roll up a Trickery cleric with the Criminal background. For all of the reasons that several others in this thread have mentioned.

 

[Chaosmancer]

IME, rogues are much tougher than wizards.

Yes, they have only 1 hp more on average. But at 5th level they get uncanny dodge which is very good.

Additionally, they typically will have a higher AC as Dexterity is their prime requisite. A mage might be able to temporarily boost their AC higher in emergencies via Shield, but that's extremely limited (and an Arcane Trickster can do the same thing for an even better AC).

Lastly, don't underestimate Cunning Action. Being able to Dash, Disengage, or Hide once per turn as a free action makes it really difficult to put a rogue in danger if he doesn't want to be. Wizards have nice get out of danger options, but they are limited use and often get in the way of doing something productive (for example, Misty Step is great but then you are reduced to only casting a cantrip that round). The rogue can use Cunning Action and still sneak attack (in fact, if dual wielding the best approach is to make your first attack - if it hits use cunning action, and if it misses decide whether you want a second chance to sneak attack or be defensive with cunning action).

Yeah, I want to second this.

Barring a swashbuckler who was always getting himself surrounded, Rogues are the class most likely to end the fight with high hp or even full hp, in my experience.

Uncanny dodge and decent AC is just a massively good combo.

 

[ZeshinX]

Simple answer for me, though for a wildly different reason: I hate the 5e Ranger class (and WotC's attempts to "fix" it over the years).

I've never liked (or particularly used) Ranger spellcasting. I've always viewed Rangers as guerilla-style warriors and played them as such (from 2e onward), rarely (if ever) tanking or engaging in melee unless desperate, rather skirting the edges of a fight and attacking surgically.

The Rogue offers that kind of playstyle with plenty of abilities allowing for and supporting it (sneak attack being the obvious biggest one), without spells (and the Scout subclass really added to that). I found the 5e Ranger and its presented variants (even the spell-less one) still too...lacking.

Not to say the Ranger as such is bad. It isn't. It's tough to have a class that does a little fighter, a little druid and a little rogue all in one without stepping on any of the toes of those classes. I just dislike how heavily the 5e Ranger leans on its spellcasting.

It (and it's WotC-offered variants) just doesn't quite offer up what I look for there...but the Rogue does.

 

[billd91]

I mean, I've long thought that rogues were overrated.

Being the only stealthy person in the party is like being the only non-smoker at a party: everyone else stinks but you somehow end up looking bad.

Nice thing about group checks now - not everyone has to be stealthy to have a reasonably stealthy party. You don’t want to be the only one, but if half of the party can get a decent check, the whole party can do OK.

Around 9th level, while everyone else in the party is doing cool tricks like wildshaping into bears, calling lightning, exploding fireballs, and raising the dead, you get to disengage and metagame over board position. "No, you should stand over here so that I can flank!"

Pfft. This is trivially easy now. Got a buddy fighting in melee, you’ve got your opportunity for sneak attack, even at range. Who needs any of that other stuff when I’m zipping in and out of a fight, coming at things from all directions.

 

[tommybahama]

Around 9th level, while everyone else in the party is doing cool tricks like wildshaping into bears, calling lightning, exploding fireballs, and raising the dead, you get to disengage and metagame over board position. "No, you should stand over here so that I can flank!"

A 9th level assassin can easily one shot a 9th level enemy wizard or sorcerer in the first round of combat and make the DM cry. I'm not sure anyone else can do that.

 

[Mistwell]

On what planet is it likely the Rogue will have good Perception check? Because I've never seen a Rogue PC in 5E who had a good one. Rogues very often dump WIS (as it's in-character to do so for a lot of them, and offers them little). Best case scenario is likely to be 0 WIS mod, +proficiency bonus for skill.

It's the best skill in the game. They likely chose it for expertise.

And Wisdom is one of the three key saves, so the rogues I've seen have at least a 12 in it. I've seen more rogues dump charisma than wisdom.

 

[Ratskinner]

the way they are described, the opening is a moving point on your own plane but the space inside is a specific one. Thats pretty well understood. And thats the only necessary part.

But your campaign is your campaign. Changing it to a moving extraplanar space would actually be a house rule though. Possibly a good one (considering what i just laid out).

"if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered. "

Seems to me that wording indicates you and the object would have to be inside the bag of holding when you cast it to use it this way. If you cast the spell at location A, put it in the bag of holding, then pull it out at location B (more than 10 feet away), the spell would fizzle at soon as hits "normal space" again (possibly when you close the bag). Because the object would have moved (and be moving) more than 10' from "where you cast the spell", even if it did so through the interdimensional space for a total movement distance of less than 10 feet (from the object's point of view). Note that the wording doesn't say "moves more than a total of 10 feet", and the bag of holding opening isn't a wormhole that "connects" the original casting spot to its current location. As soon as the bag is closed, the spatial continuity that allows you to define a distance from a location outside the bag is lost. (whether that would fizzle the spell or not is unclear). As soon as you open the bag in location B, that spatial continuity is re-established and the "more than 10 feet from where you cast the spell" condition is met (assuming you're on the same plane as you cast it). If the wording was "if the object is moved more than 10 feet, the glyph...", then I think the trick would work. As it is, the limitation is unrelated to how much movement the object experiences.

Its also a bit unclear how distance works inside a BoH. Maximum volume is 64 cubic feet, but no shape is specified. so it might even fizzle inside.

just my $.02 on an interesting thought.

 

[Mistwell]

That is not how the math on Advantage works. It's dependent entirely on the target DC. It often works out close to +5.

The point is, the Familiar is near-zero investment. If you can cast Find Familiar, you will, and if you want an optimal familiar, you will pick Owl (it's pretty much all-round the best also it's an owl and owls are awesome).

Whereas you're talking about prioritizing WIS to some degree (and thus likely having a 0 mod in CHA and also STR, though the latter is generally only used for Athletics, which, sadly, includes all climbing - you might also have a lower CON as a result), then picking Perception for Expertise.

I love familiars. I am playing a wizard right now who uses an owl (named Who).

But they're not optimal for scouting. For these reasons:

1. They die often. One swat and they're toast. One area effect and they're toast. So many things kill them.

And then you need time to re-summon them as a ritual. Which takes 1 hour and 10 minutes. In the dungeon we're in right now (White Plume Mountain) that's 11 wandering monster checks. And because you're casting a spell that whole time, you don't even get all the benefits of a short rest for it.

2. They're not nearly as good at stealth as the rogue. +3 and tiny size isn't bad, but it's no rogue. So they can get caught. And then...see #1.

3. They cannot open doors, or even lift things like rugs to look under it. That 3 strength and Tiny size and lack of a hand/fingers just doesn't cut it to do much. When a simple door stops you from scouting further, that can be an issue.

4. They have a range of 100 feet. Which is good, but sometimes it's nice to be able to go further than that.

5. You're deaf and blind while seeing through your familiar. Which means you're basically auto-surprised if foes come on your resting spot while you're telepathically looking through the eyes of your familiar.

I'd take a rogue over an owl to scout any day. Familiars are fantastic. But they're a poor-mans rogue for scouting. The real deal is better.