Want To See The Castle Ravenloft Poster Map In CURSE OF STRAHD?

Those who are excited about the fold-out map in Curse of Strahd can take a peek at it courtesy of Jeremy Crawford. The map features Barovia on one side, and Castle Ravenloft on the other, depicted in a gorgeous isometric view just like the original Ravenloft module was back in 1983.

 

[The Human Target]

Really? So do you have a better idea of how to:
Determine what the castle looks like?
To tell where pcs/npcs etc are in the castle?
How about to invoke a visual feel for the module?

Regular top down maps and art?

 

[ko6ux]

it's much more practical overall then it's original form, simpler due to it's scale, of course hiding it from players while playing will be some task.....

As beautiful as that poster is, it would have been nice if they had reimagined the map a bit. Some of us old school types have played through this map (either as a player, DM, or both) multiple times. While I am sure that the content in the castle will be (at least somewhat) different than the original, it still makes things a little bit stagnant.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I've heard a lot of good things about Death House - what do you find lacking? The lack of ceiling height on a floor map notwithstanding.

That's just one example of the (terrible) format that WotC and TSR have been using since forever. Write everything in a big wall of text, force the DM to read it all the way through before running it, waste huge amounts of page space to say something that could've been communicated in one sentence (like "there is nothing important in this room"), present facts the DM has to learn and reference rather than opportunities for the DM to be creative, etc. The fact that they even felt the need to explain the ceilings at all is pretty offensive, because any answer made up by the DM on the spot would be just as good. Those words have absolutely no reason to be there. It's just a waste of the reader's time.

Also a lot of weirdness specific to that adventure--like the only way to get to the basement is through the attic? And leveling up in the middle of the first session, with no corresponding in-world action, based on arbitrary criteria that the PCs have no way of knowing? Like, are they supposed to have their 2nd-level character sheets ready to go before they even start playing their 1st-level characters, or are you supposed to stop the game so everyone can look in the book? It all adds up.

I mean, I'm sure it's fine on the TSR/WotC grading curve (right up there with Keep on the Shadowfell, har har).

Hmm, not a lot to chew on. What are die drop tables? All you want is better maps?

Well, that's by no means all. But it's probably the biggest issue. It's not just "better maps;" it's better information design and fewer words.

Here are a few blog posts that state the problem, show egregious examples of the problem, and provide a manifesto:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-to-write-10000-pages-of-gibberish.html
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2013/03/this-is-why-ruins-of-undermountain-is.html
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/03/arrows-and-boxes-and-columns-and-bullet.html

tl;dr:

RPG books usually have terrible graphic design--which is sad, because they are one of the very few types of books that actually need good graphic design.

I do not mean "good graphic design" in the boring, anal-retentive sense of "do whatever you can to make the book look expensive" (WOTC has that covered, since they have money, and most other game companies have it covered to the best of their ability) or in the commercial sense of "good graphic design makes the content look more interesting than it actually is" (RPG companies are all over that, they know all about that), I mean in the sense of "organizing the presentation of the entire corpus of information to be processed repeatedly at high speed by players and GMs". (Information design + graphic design, really, as DerikB points out in the comments.)

Good graphic design in this practical, engineering sense: Novels don't need it. Magazines don't need it. Encyclopedias could use it but don't need it. You can take your time with these--if you weren't taking your time you probably wouldn't be reading these things in the first place. On the other hand: Instruction manuals need it. RPG books--up there with maps and tourist books--do desperately need it. And we haven't even gotten started on modules--adventure modules need it more than anything ever.

By the way, the dude who wrote all that is also the author of the product I mentioned: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/91110/Vornheim-The-Complete-City-Kit

 

[MonsterEnvy]

And a bit of sadness from me. I just learned from an early book owner that all the castle Raveloft maps are isometric. Unless I use 3rd party maps I won't be able to play it my style on an online table top. This is my first major disappointment about this product.

I like the Isometric maps but they are useless to me with out top down versions.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I like the Isometric maps but they are useless to me with out top down versions.

Assuming the maps haven't changed from older versions of the adventure... Would this help?

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/GryphonHill/barovia/castleravenloft.html

 

[LostandDamned]

Looks exactly right. Man, I used to have that map memorized. I'm not normally a killer GM (I have only a handful of non-Ravenloft PC deaths over 35 years), but I always ran Strahd as ruthless, crafty, and resourceful. Players repeated threw down the gauntlet to see if they could beat I6.

I remember with special fondness:
- The Thief-Acrobat who died by falling damage because he tried to grapple Strahd at the edge of the overlook.
- The Magic-User who died by his own lightning bolt because Strahd goaded him into using it between two stone walls (1E lightning bolt bounced and vampires were resistant or immune to lightning).
- The Paladin who had his Holy Avenger secretly stolen during a midnight camp encounter (i.e. diversion) and replaced with a duplicate with Nystul's magic aura (do not spend two weeks investigating Strahd before moving in). Strahd grabbed the sword and snapped it over his knee before the Paladin discovered the switch. I've never seen such abject, crestfallen horror on a player's face.
- The Wizard who slipped through the drawbridge and used his Wand of Wonder as a last ditch effort, turning himself to stone. They would have needed a dustpan to collect him.

Man, that's some great unforgetable PC deaths there....

 

[Onussen]

Looks exactly right. Man, I used to have that map memorized. I'm not normally a killer GM (I have only a handful of non-Ravenloft PC deaths over 35 years), but I always ran Strahd as ruthless, crafty, and resourceful. Players repeated threw down the gauntlet to see if they could beat I6.

I remember with special fondness:
- The Thief-Acrobat who died by falling damage because he tried to grapple Strahd at the edge of the overlook.
- The Magic-User who died by his own lightning bolt because Strahd goaded him into using it between two stone walls (1E lightning bolt bounced and vampires were resistant or immune to lightning).
- The Paladin who had his Holy Avenger secretly stolen during a midnight camp encounter (i.e. diversion) and replaced with a duplicate with Nystul's magic aura (do not spend two weeks investigating Strahd before moving in). Strahd grabbed the sword and snapped it over his knee before the Paladin discovered the switch. I've never seen such abject, crestfallen horror on a player's face.
- The Wizard who slipped through the drawbridge and used his Wand of Wonder as a last ditch effort, turning himself to stone. They would have needed a dustpan to collect him.

Out of curiosity, Did Strahd cheerfully take the minimum of 10 hit points of damage from just touching the Holy Avenger. He had 55 hit points, IIRC, so just a scratch to him. Did the Paladin's player witness the item's saving throw? It would have had a +11 to its save (or maybe just a +6) v. crushing blow, and with the sword only needing to roll a '6' to save, it could only fail on a '1'.

I'm guessing that you all were playing AD&D 1e. If not, ignore my comment please.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Assuming the maps haven't changed from older versions of the adventure... Would this help?

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/GryphonHill/barovia/castleravenloft.html

I found some nice Castle Raveloft maps already but thanks anyway.

 

[dave2008]

That's just one example of the (terrible) format that WotC and TSR have been using since forever. Write everything in a big wall of text, force the DM to read it all the way through before running it, waste huge amounts of page space to say something that could've been communicated in one sentence (like "there is nothing important in this room"), present facts the DM has to learn and reference rather than opportunities for the DM to be creative, etc. The fact that they even felt the need to explain the ceilings at all is pretty offensive, because any answer made up by the DM on the spot would be just as good. Those words have absolutely no reason to be there. It's just a waste of the reader's time.

Didn't you ask for a note on the map about this? I think I get it now - you are generally a bit hyperbolic. Got it. Of course they are making a product to sell and since the majority of purchasers don't actually run the adventure - just read it, that may be the reason for what you see as a wall of text. That being said that was one thing I hated about 3e products in general - they all seemed like a wall of text. 5e has some of that to, I do miss the simple graphic design / layout of 4e.

Also a lot of weirdness specific to that adventure--like the only way to get to the basement is through the attic? And leveling up in the middle of the first session, with no corresponding in-world action, based on arbitrary criteria that the PCs have no way of knowing? Like, are they supposed to have their 2nd-level character sheets ready to go before they even start playing their 1st-level characters, or are you supposed to stop the game so everyone can look in the book? It all adds up.

I haven't read through it yet, but is there an explanation in the adventure or a logical reason that can be inferred? I thought someone mentioned that on another thread. I find the seceret door to the attic more annoying personally. But as an architect by profession I generally have a different view of these maps than most.

Well, that's by no means all. But it's probably the biggest issue. It's not just "better maps;" it's better information design and fewer words.

See my response above, because you are in the minority I think it is unlikely to change to the fewer words route.

Here are a few blog posts that state the problem, show egregious examples of the problem, and provide a manifesto:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-to-write-10000-pages-of-gibberish.html
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2013/03/this-is-why-ruins-of-undermountain-is.html
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/03/arrows-and-boxes-and-columns-and-bullet.html

tl;dr:

By the way, the dude who wrote all that is also the author of the product I mentioned: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/91110/Vornheim-The-Complete-City-Kit

Thanks for the links, but since I don't run published adventures (or write them) I don't think I'm the target audience. I give them a look when I get some free time.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Didn't you ask for a note on the map about this?

I merely meant that the information didn't need to be in text form, because it could be included on the map (poor information design, especially embarrassing next to the 33-year-old Ravenloft map which does all that and more). In the post you quoted just now, I went on to say that that information doesn't even need to be there at all (poor writing/editing standards, explaining things the DM doesn't need to know). It's a double-dip of corporate mediocrity, and it shows they just didn't care about good information design.

I understand Perkins wanting to write down every single tiny detail. It helps the author get a more complete picture of the content. But when you print it in a book for other people to read, every word has a cost: the reader's time and patience (which are severely limited resources for a DM in the middle of running an adventure). Surely Perkins is a good enough writer to understand this, and surely he doesn't get paid per word, so how does this keep happening? Did they just not have enough content to fit a 250-page book, and they had to stretch it out? Is that what happened to all the other 5e adventures?

Of course they are making a product to sell and since the majority of purchasers don't actually run the adventure - just read it, that may be the reason for what you see as a wall of text.

Yeah. They're in the business of publishing giant hardback books, which is definitely not the ideal format for an adventure module. It has become crystal clear that "DMs who actually want stuff for their game" is not WotC's target audience anymore. So I'm not going to give them my money anymore. I feel like a fool for having bought all the 5e books so far.

I haven't read through it yet, but is there an explanation in the adventure or a logical reason that can be inferred?

From my initial reading, the logical explanation is "the house decides to reveal the secret doors based on completely arbitrary conditions that make no sense in-world, and somehow that means you level up." The real reason is that they'd used up all their XP budget, and needed to get the PCs to be level 2 before they went underground. But I'll revisit it when I'm making my review.