War as "necessary evil"

barsoomcore said:
Source for what? The quote about defenders starting wars? Nope, comes from the excellent novel Dragon by the excellent writer Steven Brust. Highly recommended. Not sure why it matters where the quote came from, though?

The reason I brought that up was because I have admittedly not heard of the author or book and was thinking (read: hoping) that you were quoting something game-related (since this is a gaming-related thread on a gaming-related forum).

Pleased to be providing new ideas. You're welcome!

I admit, I have been thinking about this more than most posts; even talking to the gaming buddies about it. We are still unclear as to whether you are truly buying this yourself or are posting all of this to screw with the heads of the other forum members.

If it were my character, I'd suggest the king had lost his marbles. I'm assuming the king in question is king of the country the character tried to defend -- it's not entirely clear who "he" is in that sentence.

Okay, when placed into context, "he" is certainly the player character. So let me get this straight...you agree with me that having a King who views defense of the land as an act of war would be crazy or had "lost his marbles?" What is the difference between viewing the King as such and what you have been saying? I'm confused.

It's entirely possible to declare a war and not start one. I'll point out, however, Hitler did not declare war on Poland, he simply walked in and set about being in charge. Had Poland not resisted, the war would not have started. At least, not then. Germany did not declare war on Britain, you know. Quite the other way around.

Until the defender decides to resist the invader, there is no war. Indeed, in most cases, when the defender chooses NOT to resist, we don't even call it "invasion". Ask the Czechs about what happened in 1938.

Let's try not to bring real-world politics into this. Rarely on a forum like this is it ever productive.

Sorry if my usage is unclear. I capitalized Good and Evil to indicate their game-mechanical meaning. I don't use the game mechanic of alignment in my campaign.

I'd also like to think that people with ideas and a willingness to express them are welcome in any thread.

Never said your post was not welcome; I merely asked what your point was. My earlier proposed situation was stated to you because the topic was about good/evil issues in a "vanilla" campaign setting. I know your setting is different than mine and that of the "core game" so I was using the "core game" as a common point of reference to get you to illustrate your points. When questions were dodged and "not in my game" disclaimers were put up instead, it merely confused me even more...wondering what your point was.

Please note that I have never said that it's not sometimes a necessary thing to start a war. When I say the defender starts the war I'm not saying the defender is morally responsible for whatever horrors are thereby unleashed -- I'm just saying that unless the defender chooses to resist, there is no war.

If we consider the notion that war is always evil, then for a defender to decide to start a war, to decide to resist, they must somehow justify the need to do so. Perhaps they believe that failing to resist will only result in greater evil. Perhaps they feel that their right to the territory outweighs the evil of violence. You can make those judgements and still believe that war is fundamentally evil.

This is a very interesting discussion. Dogbrain -- props.

Okay....NOW I finally get it. The whole "defender starts the war" is just a clever twist on somantics and a crazy play on words. If a horde of orcs takes over a village and demands to have all of the food and money in the village, the villagers technically are starting the war if they resist orc-occupation (after attempts at diplomacy, etc); however, the orcs are still the "bad guys" morally responsible for the bad stuff going on. I'm guessing that if an outside group (neighboring village) viewed war in any form as evil, only the most closed-minded or shallowest of intellect would see the villagers as anything close to "evil." Cultures, who did view any sort of war as evil and viewed the invaded villagers as evil, would quickly isolate themselves under banners of self-righteousness. If they were to ever be invaded themselves, the culture would self-destruct as various factions faught over how to deal with said invasion. In my opinion, they'd already be self-destructing, as such pacifist ideas would make it difficult to combat internal crime and corruption; especially if said culture had pride in itself being religious and devout.
 

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barsoomcore said:
Unless the defender chooses to fight back, there is no war.

Unless the attacker chooses to continue marching its army forward when the defending country chooses to protect itself, there is no war.

My first post still stands.

The attacking country has the choice to back down when the defender takes up arms.

As for accountability on both sides, that's accountability for both sides starting the war. For there to be a war in the first place, one country has to begin an attack, and then the defender has to protect itself, and then both sides have to declare that they're not going to back down.

I see the position you're coming from, and while not completely invalid, it still, at best, places blame on both sides.

If that's still not satisfactory, let's see if I can't put it in a more understandable light.

The aggressor fields an army, and begins marching it into the defender's territory.

The defender fields an army, and places it around its borders.

At this point, the aggressor has two options - continue marching forward, or march into the country and start a war. The option to go to war is still the aggressors. Which means the option to start a war is still the aggressors.

Better?
 

Cbas10 said:
So let me get this straight...you agree with me that having a King who views defense of the land as an act of war would be crazy or had "lost his marbles?" What is the difference between viewing the King as such and what you have been saying? I'm confused.
Sorry, you've changed my statement. I never said that a King who views the defense of his land as an act of war was crazy. I said that a King who makes accusations against those defending his kingdom might be crazy.

To say that somebody started a war is not an accusation. It is either a true or a false statement. You and Trickstergod both seem to trip over this issue -- you keep bringing in notions of accountability and blame that only confuse the issue of who actually started the war.

So if the King recognizes that the Count who put his army into the field to meet the invaders is in fact the fellow who started the war, that's just the King being clear about the facts. But if he accuses the Count of some heinous deed, says, "Why would you do such a thing?" and is generally an ungrateful sod, I'd certainly wonder about his mental state.
Cbas10 said:
When questions were dodged and "not in my game" disclaimers were put up instead, it merely confused me even more...wondering what your point was.
Sorry to be unclear. Questions were not dodged -- they're irrelevant to the point I'm making. Your questions asked things like "Do paladins lose their powers for resisting?" -- my answer was, "I don't care." Sorry if I was too flippant, but I don't. One the one hand, I don't deal with paladins, so I don't care, and on the other, the issue of who started the war is not the same issue as who is to blame for the war.

One of the problems with Evil/Good is that you have to blame somebody for stuff like this -- because somebody's got to be the bad guy.

And worrying about who's the bad guy BEFORE you understand the facts is only going to get you into trouble somewhere down the line.
Cbas10 said:
The whole "defender starts the war" is just a clever twist on somantics and a crazy play on words.
At the very least, it's a clever play on semantics that's caused you to think deeply about the issue. Not all semantic arguments are useless.

But if by this statement you're trying to say that the idea "defender starts the war" contains no intellectual content, I'd have to disagree. The point of thinking this way is to assess conflict in a factual, not a moral, manner.

Once you can disassociate the moral issues from the factual issues, your decision-making becomes simpler and the correctness of your decisions will (all other factors being equal) increase.
Cbas10 said:
Cultures, who did view any sort of war as evil and viewed the invaded villagers as evil, would quickly isolate themselves under banners of self-righteousness. If they were to ever be invaded themselves, the culture would self-destruct as various factions faught over how to deal with said invasion. In my opinion, they'd already be self-destructing, as such pacifist ideas would make it difficult to combat internal crime and corruption; especially if said culture had pride in itself being religious and devout.
Interesting. History certainly suggests that cultures that do not find ways to incorporate "righteous violence" into their philosophies do not survive very long.

I hope it's more clear to you now the point I'm making -- the point is to separate fact from morality. Determine the facts, then (if you are so inclined) make your moral judgements.
 

Trickstergod said:
Unless the attacker chooses to continue marching its army forward when the defending country chooses to protect itself, there is no war.
Armies marching do not constitute war. People committing acts of violence against each other do. Until the defender resists the incoming army with some sort of violence, there is no war.

You seem to be taking for granted the idea that marching your army into a neighboring country is an act of war. It is ONLY an act of war if the defender sees it as such.

Just the use of the terms "attacker" and "defender" reveal a bias in us both towards the idea that the war is ordained from the moment the "attacker" decides to invade.

The simple fact is that if the "defender" does not defend, they aren't the "defender". And it's not a war.
Trickstergod said:
I see the position you're coming from, and while not completely invalid, it still, at best, places blame on both sides.
I hope, after reading my latest response to Cbas10, my position is clearer. I place blame nowhere. I am unconcerned with the question of blame -- merely facts. Blame, accountability -- these are not facts, they are judgements.
Trickstergod said:
The aggressor fields an army, and begins marching it into the defender's territory.

The defender fields an army, and places it around its borders.

At this point, the aggressor has two options - continue marching forward, or march into the country and start a war. The option to go to war is still the aggressors. Which means the option to start a war is still the aggressors.

Better?
Nope. Fielding armies, marching armies -- these are not the factors that determine if a war begins. There are plenty of historical cases of armies being fielded, marched and placed without war breaking out. Unless there is resistance, there is no war. And the choice to resist is the defender's choice alone.

A defender who understands this, who doesn't confuse the issue with the need to say "I didn't start it," is going to make better decisions.
 


Okay, so a Hypersmurf, what's that? A Smurf that travels faster than the speed of light? Something smurfier than a Smurf? Or the big boss wazoo Smurf?

Oh, never mind.

*tries whacking Hypersmurf with the Hong-beating stick, fails, plays Judas Priest in frustration*
 

I think it might be time to talk about Just War Theory. Just War Theory is a rather difficult specialization of ethics that has been debated in Western Civilization since the Greeks, so please don't jump on me too badly for posting a condense version on an internet bulletin board. Further, trying to define the theory as a whole is trying to define any other field of philosophy: it is open to argument (and Wittgenstien would say its pointless, but that's another story all together).

For my rather practical purposes (as a military officer with a degree in philosophy) Just War Theory is something of a moral contract with my government, and agreement saying that I will take actions directly or indirectly to kill other human beings when in war. In the Western scheme of morality, killing another human being is an evil act, whether you base it on the principle of thou shalt not kill (more accurately though, thou shalt not murder, but I'll talk more about this in a line or two), or the fact that the act of killing another human being denies him or her every one of his civil rights (life, liberty, and property). However, in our society, we have also come up with schema on killing, methods of justify the act so that it is not murder. (This is not a relativism arguement, saying that we create our own morality, rather both agnostic and religious philosophers will generally agree that killing in a just war is not murder). While many strict moralist will say that killing is always "evil" (for lack of a better word), most will agree that if killing justified by certain principles, then the killer himself is not evil.

The idea is that the simple committing of an evil action does not make a person evil. Evil can be defined as the quality of being morally corrupt. Therefore, an evil action is an act that is morally corrupt, and an evil person is morally corrupt. To use the syllogism "Killing is evil (killing has the evil quality), Ed killed, ergo Ed is evil (Ed has the evil quality)" is a lingustic fallacy, similar to saying "Typing requires ten fingers, Ed typed, ergo Ed is ten fingers," or "Running is fast, Ed ran, ergo Ed is fast." Performing an action does not cause the actor to take upon the quality of his actions.

Instead, we must examine the actor to find signs of moral corruption. In this case, whether the act of killing is evil or not is irrelevant: what matters is the actor. For example, most can agree that a policeman who kills to protect the innocent is not evil, even though the person he killed will never laugh again, will not be able to feed his children or take care of her ailing mother, or any one of the qualities that make the act of taking a person's life evil. In a utilitarian arguement, the policeman prevented that person from committing even more evil, so that act was justified (of course, he also prevented that person from doing more good, but that is part of the problem with utilitarianism). Likewise, while the act of signing your name is not inherently evil, that is the method through which a tyrant condemns a man to death. Would we argue that your average german soldier was more evil than Hitler? (Some might, but most would agree that no, as Hitler was the leader of Nazism, he was most responsible). The question becomes does a person act in a moral manner.

To determine this, we have developed Just War Theory. The one I am about to describe is codified by the Geneva Conventions, although every culture has their own schema of just war (Jihad can be looked at as a Just War Theory, as well as Bushido). The purpose of Just War theory is clarify as best we can (philosophy can be a clumsy tool) when we are justified in using lethal force. If you say "self-defense is justified" do you have to wait until you are invaded, or can you strike preemptively? Does it have to be a police officer protecting the innocent, or can it be a vigillante? If I am attacked by my hated foe, can I kill him in malice because he attacked first? These are some of the questions that Just War approaches.

The first part of the theory is Jus Ad Bellum: conditions necessary for me to go to war. In order for your violence to be justified, you should meet the following principles:
- Just Cause: You must have a good reason for going to war. Self-Defense is one that most people on this board have been throwing out, but some might argue that certain resources are important enough to go to war. Other reasons include moral obligation (the justification in the Balkans), or national honor (difficult to use in modern times)
- Legitimate Authority: You must be empowered in your society to make the decision to go to war. For example, an American militia can't just sail over to a Pacific island and take it over in Just War Theory (ask Hawaiians, its been done). The President is the only man in the U.S. who can order Americans to go to war, further, he can only order the military (though Congress can draft civillians). On a more personal level, the vigillante is wrong because he has not been empowered by society to protect and serve (The next time you want to defend vigillantism, think about your neighbor writing you a parking ticket, and ask where you would draw the line).
- Possessing the Right Intention: You can't go to war just because you want to and happen to have Just Cause... you must go to war because of that Just Cause. For example, the allegations that the war is Iraq is motivated to boost approval ratings before the next election are serious because, if true, the war is not justified regardless of the good we do (i.e. we would not be at war to depose a tyrant and free a country, but help one man remain President. Also a disclaimer: this is an example, I do not believe this to be true).
- Reasonable Chance of Success: It must be possible that my resistance can succeed. This is very difficult to assert in this day in age, because many small powers (Vietnam against the U.S., Afghanistan against the U.S.S.R) have managed to defeat vastly superior foes. A better example would be to look at Lee's choice to surrender to Grant, or the Japanese surrender to the U.S.: the forces could still fight, but they could no longer win.
- Proportionality: You must do more good than harm. For example, the "No Blood for Oil" argument of the first Gulf War is a proportionality argument: although Iraq was unjustly controlling Kuwait's oil supply, freeing it would not be worth the bloodshed it required (again, not advocating a political stance, just placing it in the theory). Under these conditions, any Just Cause can be negated. For example, if my death would save the lives of ten people, it can be argued that I would be evil to defend myself from death.
-Last Resort: Some people do not include this in Jus ad Bellum, some include it in the other principles, I'm listing it here for the sake of completeness. War must be a last resort: one must be reluctant to go to war. All other practical avenues must be exhausted. Jus ad Bellum is not a checklist that one can mark off, grab their rifle and start shooting. At best, killing itself is a necessary evil, and you cannot be justified unless its necessary.

The other part of Just War theory is Jus in Bello, or how to conduct yourself while at war (how you may morally kill). These binds the President, the General, the Lieutenent and Sergeant, all the way down to Private. Even if I am justified in going to war, my killing is not justified if I don't hold to two principles:
- Discrimination: Just War does not mean go out and kill every one of your enemies, you must discriminate in your violence. Under the Geneva conventions, it includes all non-combatants, historically, it meant women and children (as well as not necessarily burning cities to the ground). Further, you can only kill who it is necessary to kill, not whom it is convenient. To use a classic D&D example, a strict interpretation of discrimination, you could not kill every orc baby because they'll grow up to kill you, as they pose no threat to your or your success in war. (The "they'll grow up to be evil" argument doesn't cut it in Just War because you have years to prevent them from growing old enough to kill, ergo it is probably not the last resort, only the most convenient option). Discrimination is probably the hardest part of modern war, and I personally would have a hard time holding a man responsible for shooting non-combatants to save their own life (as in Blackhawk Down).
- Proportionality: The ends must still justify the means (to turn that expression back on itself). This applies not only to myself (You cannot shoot a combatant that no longer has the means to resist or escape, nor cannot use lethal force on one who does not have the means to use lethal force), but also to the goverment (for example, we don't use nuclear weapons in Iraq because that would be wrong). It is probably the most difficult to explain (and overlaps with Jus Ad Bellum), but personally I think Aristotle had the best idea: "act virtuously." It is a soldiers job to minimize his opponent's suffering, even while trying to kill him.

Now, many don't like Just War Theory, feeling morality has no place in war, or that anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty. (That would be the amoral and utiltiarian views of war, by the way). However, Just War Theory would be considered "classical" in the sense that it stems from ancient and medieval thought and Western moral concepts. Its the closest your going to get to the "Saturday Morning Cartoon" morality that most Americans were raised on If you think about it, this is how He-Man fought Skeletor: he was defending Eternia (Just Cause), empowered to do so because he was the Prince and appointed by Grayskull (Legitimate Authority), he always fought for his friends and country, never for personal gain or glory (Right Intentions), always won (ergo always had a Reasonable Chance of Success), and never did any harm at all (Proportionality). He only beat on Skeletor and his minions (Discrimination) and never killed anyone (Proportionality). GI Joe and Transformers were the same way.

Anyway, just a few thoughts
 

Whew. Great post, Elaer. You've summed up a particular moral position with great eloquence.

Thank you. I greatly enjoyed reading that.
 

Elaer said:
- Reasonable Chance of Success: It must be possible that my resistance can succeed. This is very difficult to assert in this day in age, because many small powers (Vietnam against the U.S., Afghanistan against the U.S.S.R) have managed to defeat vastly superior foes.

"Stopping you is not important," said the earl. "It never was."
"Then what are you doing?"
"We are trying to stop you."
"Is this a riddle which I should understand?"
"Your understanding is not important. It may be that destiny intends you to succeed. It may be that a Nadir empire will prove vastly beneficial to the world. But ask yourself this: Were there no army here when you arrived, save Druss alone, would he have opened the gate to you?"
"No. He would have fought and died," said Ulric.
"But he would not have expected to win. So why would he do it?"
"Now I understand your riddle, Earl. But it saddens me that so many men must die when it is futile to resist."

David Gemmell, Legend.

-Hyp.
 
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Hypersmurf,

Not to discount what seems to be a pretty cool book, but instead of crediting Gemmell, we really have to examine Thucydides, who in his History recounted the Melian argument, which went something like this:

The Athenian had the island of Melos surrounded and cut off. Their generals requested parley, and rather than attempt to get the Melian's surrender with arguments that the Athenians were righteous, noble, and favored by the gods, they basically said that they had more men and ships and spears, no help was coming, and that Melos could surrender or die. The Melians basically told them to stuff it (Thucydides put it more eloquently than I did), and held out several months until Athens took the city, and killed every man who could wield a spear.

To say that there is an explicit moral to the story is difficult, different people take away different things. But this is not necessarily the question that is posed by asking "can I reasonably expect success." Another question is "Can I effectively continue to resist."

In the examples we have used so far, we have examine total war that can only end with the destruction of the enemy. In these cases, survival of the state is not possible without victory, and even the smallest chance of victory is better that the oppression of the tyrannical foriegn power. Fighting is an option, because it has a greater chance of success than not fighting. But lets lower the odds. Let us look at Great Britain after World War II. The Brits are perhaps the only Empire in history to return most of its territory to its native people without overwhelming bloodshed. The British did not fight an all out war in India, Africa, or any of the various places it controlled, because it was pointless to do so. Eventually, India, with a billion people half a world away, would be independent. Rather than fight a war, they let it go with very little bloodshed (at least on their own part). But let us look at this from a Jus ad Bellum perspective: apart from virtually no chance of success, you could have justified an Indian-British War from a British view: They were a sovereign nation with an opposition force within their territory (Just Cause and Legitimate Authority), with the sole intent on keeping their territory (Right Intentions) through use of a military police force (generally accepted as Proportional). But would it be justified? No, because its just a finger in the dyke: eventually, the situation would have to be resolved and the British would have to give India its own Sovereignty.

Remember, Just War Theory is a field of study, not a checklist. I would say personally that the certainty of success required to justify war is inversely proportional to the level of the crisis. It kind of like self-defense. If a mugger wants your wallet, give him your wallet, you're more likely to get out of the situation that way. If he's on drugs and looks like he's going to kill you, fight, because your odds are better that way.
 

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