War Trolls aren't Giants !?!?

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I wouldn't have thought sorcerer levels would count as associated levels for a Frost Giant (heck , I don't count cleric levels as associated levels for giants). They're like some sort of dunce cap for the poor shmuck stuck in the corner casting the couple of levels of spells he's capable of instead of power attacking with his friends.

Ah Sorcerer giants, I still have fond memories of a 3.0 vampire Hill Giant sorcerer (with pre-errata 17 charisma) abusing 3.0 shield and making the whole party stop dead in it's tracks. They don't make them like that anymore.

So, I'm with you on the sorcerer levels but Cleric? Clerics have a great assortment of wonderful 'Let me hit them better' spells and heavy armor. Cleric is definately associated for Giants.

 

[Shade]

No, if you are going to have a classification system at all then you should have it make sense, not just change it for a 'DM's Surprise!'

The Auld Grump

Amen to that.

 

[frankthedm]

And yes, if it is not a giant (?!) then a ranger should get at least a chance of realizing it. Perhaps not a certain knowledge, but a chance.

Yep, right when the ranger sees the troll with his own eyes.

 

[Xombie Master]

Yep, right when the ranger sees the troll with his own eyes.

Exactly the real problem. The ranger got ripped by the DM. War Trolls are a common enemy in this campaign world, and there really is no excuse other than bad judgement on the dungeon master's part.

It's the DM's perogative to trick the players by introducing unexpected stats. It discourages meta-gaming. Players shouldn't always know what a monster's weaknesses are.

This wasn't metagaming, he's a Ranger with many ranks in the appropriate skills, and Favored Enemy: Giant. Hunting his foe in a campaign world where War Troll's are a common foe. The DM was there when he said it was cool to buy the arrows for use against War Trolls. The DM is not in the right to lie to a player when the player uses the proper channels to learn how to properly battle said enemy.

 

[frankthedm]

So the DM SAID the slaying arrows would work on the war trolls? and then they didn't

OR

Did the Ranger say he was buying giant slaying arrows, to which the DM said "OK"?

OR

Did the NPC selling the arrows say they would work?

The situation still sounds a little vague. Which happens when one side of an argument wants thier side to look better. An in depth account of whatwas said would be helpfull.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think the issue is that class levels don't neatly create a 1:1 CR progression. A frost giant with a level of barbarian gets a lot for that +1 CR. A frost giant with a level of sorcerer? Not so much.

IMHO, proof positive that the 3e design philosophy behind mosnters was deeply and harmfully flawed.

"NPC's follow the same rules as PC's!" Right. Unless you're not a humanoid. Or if you're a powerful humanoid. Or if you have wings, or arms, or a racial strength bonus in the double digits because "you are supposed to be strong!"

:\

 

[Xombie Master]

The situation still sounds a little vague. Which happens when one side of an argument wants thier side to look better. An in depth account of whatwas said would be helpfull.

Ok, there is no doubt in my mind that the player was ripped off. I'm a DM. Frequently I let my NPCs pull the wool over the PC's eyes, this however is not the case. The Ranger took the Favored Enemy: Giant ability specifically to fight War Trolls. As in he said, "I'm taking favored enemy: War Trolls." He was informed that "Because War Trolls are giants, you are actually taking Favored Enemy: Giant." So when he later purchased the Arrows of Slaying, he was very in the right to assume Giants were the right kind to buy. The DM was wrong to begin with, and has let his oversight penalize the player.
Said DM is a close friend of mine, but he has this problem. He thinks that any amount of backing down and admitting fault will undermine his "authority" as a DM. The thing is, he has no authority, he doesn't even own the books. I like him, but he's an idiot.

I hope that makes it clear.