Warblade maneuvers

[Nail]

Exactly.

During our meeting last tuesday, the PCs were being Scryed on several times (by different casters!). So several Will saves out of combat. Then they encountered an illusion-filled room, inhabited by a dragonfolk ghost with Beguiler levels. Lots of Will saves ensued.

For my game? "Problem with Moment of Perfect Mind is handled, sir!". Does that mean I think the manuever is a balanced 1st level manuever generally? Not really.....but I might be convinced it's a good 2nd or 3rd level manuever in a generic game.

 

[hong]

During our meeting last tuesday, the PCs were being Scryed on several times (by different casters!). So several Will saves out of combat. Then they encountered an illusion-filled room, inhabited by a dragonfolk ghost with Beguiler levels. Lots of Will saves ensued.

I feel safe in concluding that your session took place in a game almost, but not quite, entirely unlike D&D as it is generally played at 7th level.

For my game? "Problem with Moment of Perfect Mind is handled, sir!". Does that mean I think the manuever is a balanced 1st level manuever generally? Not really.....but I might be convinced it's a good 2nd or 3rd level manuever in a generic game.

By the time you're 7th level, whether it's a 1st or 2nd level maneuver is a matter of profound indifference to the rest of the world.

 

[Nail]

I feel safe in concluding that your session took place in a game almost, but not quite, entirely unlike D&D as it is generally played at 7th level.

Really? What's your game look like at 7th level?

 

[Arkhandus]

....at 17th level.

Warblades can start ignoring Will saves (or whatever other manuever we're talking about) at 1st.

And your point is? Mine certainly wasn't summed up by just 'they can cast Wish eventually'. Spellcasters can do a huge number of different things, and some of those things they do will seriously screw up a DM's plans if he/she hasn't accounted for them already.

A spellcaster can Remove Fear, negate magic missiles through Shield, or restore themselves to full health after a grevious injury, at 1st-level (CLW can full-heal a 1st-level cleric who casts it). Or they can knock an entire group of enemies unconscious, alseep, or dead with a single spells (Color Spray, Sleep, Burning Hands, etc.). Among numerous other things.

While a Warblade can kinda ignore one Will save per 2 rounds or so at 1st-level onward. Big deal. Still completely vulnerable on the next round when he does his little attack and flourish to recover maneuvers. And if his spellcasting opponent isn't a moron, and is thus actually standing somewhere kinda tough to reach, like up in a tree, then the Warblade's not going to be very effective while spending every other round recovering his maneuvers, as the spellcaster blasts him or conjures nasties while the Warblade tries to reach him.

IMC, bad guys change tactics if the tactics they are presently using fail. If a bad guy throws a Will save spell, and the Warblade easily counters it, the bad guy will use some other tactic instead.

Now if, for example, the bad guys know its a Warblade, and know the counter was Moment of Perfect Mind, then that changes the tactics pretty dramatically; hit the WB with a low level Will save spell in round 1, then in round 2 (if yer still alive) hit the WB with the real Will save spell.

And if you use the Bo9S in play, then you can assume that the disciplines have been around for a while in the world and some knowledge of martial adepts has become common knowledge, even if it's just 'uh, they're like wizards or something, but they cast spells from their weapons, or something like that, right?'. It would not likely be too hard after a while for people to recognize that someone doing a fancy little bit of sword-work is perhaps as dangerous as someone making funny gestures and babbling, equating martial adepts with spellcasters.

Now sure, many NPCs won't necessarily know anything significant about martial adepts, but some of them will know, and others will have just heard about this guy in this adventuring party who does these amazing things with his weapon, and will have found a connection or learned what kinda stuff to be wary of if they should ever fight him themselves. Possibly anyway. It's not unreasonable to expect that, if this material exists in the campaign setting, people are going to know about it just as they know about spellcasters and monks.

 

[hong]

Really? What's your game look like at 7th level?

They kill the monsters and take their stuff.

 

[hong]

While a Warblade can kinda ignore one Will save per 2 rounds or so at 1st-level onward. Big deal. Still completely vulnerable on the next round when he does his little attack and flourish to recover maneuvers.

Or the spellcaster could even not use mind-affecting spells and treating the warblade like it was a fighter with crappy Will save. A warblade who readies nothing but the Diamond Mind save counters may be protected from magic, but offensively speaking, that turns him into essentially a fighter with fewer feats and crappy armour. An ogre with a greatclub renders all those counters moot.

 

[Nail]

They kill the monsters and take their stuff.

How...unusual.

My point: In order to balance this particular manuever, you have to have an extrordinary campaign. Not the typical one; Will saves have to come in pairs. IME, a Warblade or Swordsage going through published modules would have owned them.

 

[hong]

How...unusual.

My point: In order to balance this particular manuever, you have to have an extrordinary campaign.

No you don't.

Not the typical one; Will saves have to come in pairs.

... or just monsters that deal horrendous gobs of damage, without bothering with all that save business in the first place.

IME, a Warblade or Swordsage going through published modules would have owned them.

... because monsters in published modules never have more than one Will-save attack per encounter, ever.

See, right, there's this class. It's called the "sorcerer". You may have heard of it. And there's this attack called a "gaze attack". You may have heard of that as well.

 

[Nail]

We've been 'round this tree before. I think WBs are overpowered; you don't. Fair 'nuff. There's enough posted in this thread to give people ideas one way or the other.