Warblade/Swordsage questions

[Kraydak]

That's not what the chart says, and frankly, that makes it substantially more powerful assuming you haven't dumped strength.

Text trumps table. Not to mention that the table references a non-existant Discipline ("Shadow Sun", do they mean Shadow hand or Setting Sun...) and doesn't mention the stance requirement.

If you are heavily dex focused, the feat is a damage stat swap +1-4ish damage (from strength), with a tight weapon restriction and a stance requirement. The real issue is that weapon finesse is a weak style for a melee specialist. Shadow Blade means you expend 2 feats to allow a melee specialist to focus on dex (more useful than str) and get weapon spec in a bunch of mediocre weapons (Spiked chain requires a *third* feat). Weapon spec is a weak feat. The sum total effect merely makes weapon finesse combat viable for combat focused characters.

If you are a strength focused character, it becomes a slightly strong weapon spec (slightly higher damage boost, larger but gimpier weapon selection, stance requirement). But again, weapon spec. is a weak feat.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Text trumps table. Not to mention that the table references a non-existant Discipline ("Shadow Sun", do they mean Shadow hand or Setting Sun...) and doesn't mention the stance requirement.

If you are heavily dex focused, the feat is a damage stat swap +1-4ish damage (from strength), with a tight weapon restriction and a stance requirement. The real issue is that weapon finesse is a weak style for a melee specialist. Shadow Blade means you expend 2 feats to allow a melee specialist to focus on dex (more useful than str) and get weapon spec in a bunch of mediocre weapons (Spiked chain requires a *third* feat). Weapon spec is a weak feat. The sum total effect merely makes weapon finesse combat viable for combat focused characters.

If you are a strength focused character, it becomes a slightly strong weapon spec (slightly higher damage boost, larger but gimpier weapon selection, stance requirement). But again, weapon spec. is a weak feat.

First of all, no it isn't just a slightly stronger Weapon Spec--unless you're in heavy or medium armour (and you're not if you're a Swordsage), even Strength-focused combatants will eventually get a minimum of 22 Dex by the upper levels. That's more powerful than the combined strength of Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec by a factor of a third hypothetical Superior Weapon Spec. And that's the minimum (assumes 12 Dex starting out, a +6 item, and tomes for 4 more) assuming the character just wants to fit perfectly in Mithral Chain Shirt.

Secondly, Weapon Spec should not be a weak feat! If you're trying to balance the game with that in mind, you're going to be bending it.

 

[Nifft]

That's not what the chart says, and frankly, that makes it substantially more powerful assuming you haven't dumped strength.

Eh, there are Tiny critters with very low Strength scores. I don't see "replaces" being all that weak (from the DM's side of the screen).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Eh, there are Tiny critters with very low Strength scores. I don't see "replaces" being all that weak (from the DM's side of the screen).

Cheers, -- N

Oh, for sure each has its advantages, and the advantage of replacement is when there is a Str penalty. But allowing both bonuses, rather than replacement, can lead to some very high numbers, and it almost certainly will once buffs come rolling around. I have seen very few (I want to say 0!) PCs who are adding Str to damage and maintain a Str penalty into upper levels, and that includes a Pixie Rogue and other small critters.

 

[Kraydak]

First of all, no it isn't just a slightly stronger Weapon Spec--unless you're in heavy or medium armour (and you're not if you're a Swordsage), even Strength-focused combatants will eventually get a minimum of 22 Dex by the upper levels. That's more powerful than the combined strength of Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec by a factor of a third hypothetical Superior Weapon Spec. And that's the minimum (assumes 12 Dex starting out, a +6 item, and tomes for 4 more) assuming the character just wants to fit perfectly in Mithral Chain Shirt.

Secondly, Weapon Spec should not be a weak feat! If you're trying to balance the game with that in mind, you're going to be bending it.

Lets think about this. Take a high strength, moderate dex character. Starting with a 14 dex (hefty investment if str is your primary stat, but quite doable), +6 (item), +4 (costly tome) nets you +7 to damage (at level 20 or so. Through lvl 8ish it is only +2. Stat boosts are very heavily weighted toward high levels). Impressive. BUT, the only Shadow Hand weapon you can get strength and a half with, the ONLY (unarmed isn't worthwhile without immensive feat/level expenditure) Shadow Hand weapon you can use with power attack, is the spiked chain. If you don't use a spiked chain, your damage bonus (no 1.5 str...) could vanish entirely. In general, it will be reduced to about a +2 (equals weapon spec, but without PA availability). Yes, you can use a shield with a shortsword, and you can't (without animated shields) using a 2hander, but losing PA is *brutal* at the levels where Shadown Hand could outdo weapon spec. Spiked chains are good weapons (one of the few exotics that might well be worth the feat), but for a strength based character to make decent use of Shadow Blade, they are required. Good spiked chain usage is also very feat intensive... Adding another feat to the mix isn't easy.

How about a high dex, low strength character? We see the same damage gain, at the same attack bonus, with the expenditure of an extra feat (weapon finesse). This does allow us to focus on a more useful stat in general (dex to AC, saves) although strength does have its advantages (grapples). The rest of the arguments above still apply (although losing 1.5 strength is far less important). While the dex bonus to offhand damage is *not* halved (yay!), dual wielding meshes poorly in general with maneuvers (very few maneuvers let you use both weapons), is extremely feat intensive, and is generically a poor weapon style (albiet one that can be optimised for).

I'm not saying the Shadow Blade is weak, but even at high levels, with massive stat pumps, it is reasonably balanced. The Shadow Hand weapon requirement is the killer. The Shadow Hand stance requirement... can prove more irritating than one might expect. Swift actions for stance swaps are NOT free for a swordsage with a lot of boosts/counters.

And lastly, yes, in a perfectly designed DnD, weapon spec *wouldn't* suck. 3.5 isn't perfectly designed, and weapon spec is embarrasingly weak. Greater weapon spec... was finally admitted in PHBII to be flat out bad.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I've got a player who's currently playing a xeph swordsage, and she's remarkably effective. Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade = don't even worry about strength, go dexterity all the way.

Yeah, had a drow swordsage with shadow hand as primary, with some desert wind thrown in (he called them Shadow of the Night Below and Fire of the Night Above). I only later got a strength bonus when I picked up some strength boost item, but I didn't really miss that with dex and wis (which were both something like +10 in the end) to damage for most attacks - in addition to the manoeuvre stuff!

I got thinking about disciplines. How many martial disciplines can a martial adept chooses to know? like can he maneuvers from Diamond Mind and Iron Heart or is only one discipline?

There's no hard limit beyond the class restrictions (shadow hand for swordsages only, devoted spirit for crusaders, and so on) but due to the prerequisites, you'll want to concentrate on a couple of disciplines.

The swordsage I played used two disciplines, which is well-supported by the class abilities, but I think a third one will be easy to put in - especially if you favour strikes from one discipline (or two) and supplement that with boosts from a third. You should still be able to get powerful stuff from each of those disciplines.

A warblade has less manoeuvres, and since you'll want the higher-level stuff, you can't really afford a third discipline unless you'll want some major headache-inducing track-keeping of prerequisites. Two will work well, though.

I guess crusaders sit in the same boat as warblades: Two disciplines are feasible, the third one will be hard to keep.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I've got a xeph swordsage/ninja in my campaign. I ruled that you replace Str-to-damage with Dex-to-damage. Text and chart didn't agree with each other, text was unclear, and adding them both seemed too extreme.

 

[Darklone]

I've got a xeph swordsage/ninja in my campaign. I ruled that you replace Str-to-damage with Dex-to-damage. Text and chart didn't agree with each other, text was unclear, and adding them both seemed too extreme.

Granted. I'd go with the bow rule that a penalty, not a bonus counts for longbows:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#strengthStr

E.g. I would apply a str penalty but not a strength bonus to Shadow Hand weapon, everything else is unbalanced:
- Allowing str and dex bonuses to stack is broken.
- Allowing dex to supersede a horrific str bonus is broken for small or tiny creatures... and even for PCs it allows str dumping. Bad idea, arguments see above.
Using only a str penalty but not a bonus while allowing dex to work is a big advantage but not prone to abuse.

I have a swashbuckler with very good Int and Str in my group... And I can't honestly say that this class is weak if you have several good attributes.

MAD classes are generally pretty weak, but grow faster in strength if high ability scores are available.

 

[AllisterH]

For instance, in point buy, a human who wanted both Strength and Dex might grab 14 and 16, for a net of 16 point buy. The halfling has 6 Strength and 20 Dex for the same point buy. At level 1 (he's the halfling racial variant with a bonus feat instead of +1 to all saves), the PC had a +7 to hit with discipline weapons, and he does 1d4+5 with a Shortsword, for an average of 7.5..

Hmm? How do you get a +7 to hit at 1st level?

Weapon Finesse requires +1 BAB. Swordsages have a +0 BAB at level 1. Am I missing something and shouldn't he have an ATK of -2?

Furthermore, with a STR score of only 6, shouldn't he be as a halfling be at least be on medium encumberance? Chain shirt for small creatures weighs 20 lbs which by itself (not even counting anything else including sword, potions, clothes etc) puts the halfling at medium encumberance which then means the halfling has a AC DEX maximum of only +3?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Weapon Finesse requires +1 BAB.

Many people ignore that. Many other people abolish weapon finesse as a feat and make it a general option everyone can use.

Am I missing something and shouldn't he have an ATK of -2?

Even if you don't count finesse, it's +0: -2 str, +1 focus (swordsage bonus feat), +1 size.

Furthermore, with a STR score of only 6, shouldn't he be as a halfling be at least be on medium encumberance? Chain shirt for small creatures weighs 20 lbs which by itself (not even counting anything else including sword, potions, clothes etc) puts the halfling at medium encumberance which then means the halfling has a AC DEX maximum of only +3?

Again, many people don't look too closely into encumbrance.