Warblade/Swordsage questions

[AllisterH]

Many people ignore that. Many other people abolish weapon finesse as a feat and make it a general option everyone can use.

Again, many people don't look too closely into encumbrance.

But doesn't that explicitly stop the "drop STR to min, use DEX, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse?" exploit everyone was worried about? Thus, Shadow Blade, even if taken as described in the text (dex + str) doesn't negate STR?

 

[Mort]

Hmm? How do you get a +7 to hit at 1st level?

Weapon Finesse requires +1 BAB. Swordsages have a +0 BAB at level 1. Am I missing something and shouldn't he have an ATK of -2?

Swordsage has automatic weapon focus with discipline weapons at level 1 despite the +0 BAB (it's a class feature). IF shadow blade replaces strength and if you allow the alternate halfing that allows an extra feat then +7 to hit is correct (+1 weapon focus (discipline weapons) +1 size +5 dex from weapon finesse). otherwise you can still get +9 at 3rd level without the extra feat. If you add strength and dex, the +7 is harder, but +6 is pretty easy (16 dex, 14 str human for example).

 

[AllisterH]

Swordsage has automatic weapon focus with discipline weapons at level 1 despite the +0 BAB (it's a class feature). IF shadow blade replaces strength and if you allow the alternate halfing that allows an extra feat then +7 to hit is correct (+1 weapon focus (discipline weapons) +1 size +5 dex from weapon finesse). otherwise you can still get +9 at 3rd level without the extra feat. If you add strength and dex, the +7 is harder, but +6 is pretty easy (16 dex, 14 str human for example).

Er, perhaps you kinda missed my point.

Weapon Finesse has a requirement of BAB +1. Swordsages at level 1 have a BAB of +0. How can he take WF at 1st level by RAW?

 

[Mort]

Er, perhaps you kinda missed my point.

Weapon Finesse has a requirement of BAB +1. Swordsages at level 1 have a BAB of +0. How can he take WF at 1st level by RAW?

No, you missed mine. As a class feature (level 1 ability) swordsages have weapon focus with weapons of their chosen discipline (they pick from tiger claw weapons, diamond mind weapons, etc.). As it is a class feature it overrides any +1 requirement - kind of like monks not being able to qualify for stunning fist at level one except that the book says so.

 

[Kraydak]

No, you missed mine. As a class feature (level 1 ability) swordsages have weapon focus with weapons of their chosen discipline (they pick from tiger claw weapons, diamond mind weapons, etc.). As it is a class feature it overrides any +1 requirement - kind of like monks not being able to qualify for stunning fist at level one except that the book says so.

Weapon Finesse: requires +1 BaB, NOT given as a bonus feat for swordsages.
Weapon Focus: requires proficiency and +1 BaB, IS given as a bonus feat for swordsages for a class on weapons.
Both abbreviate to WF...

 

[Kraydak]

Granted. I'd go with the bow rule that a penalty, not a bonus counts for longbows:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#strengthStr

E.g. I would apply a str penalty but not a strength bonus to Shadow Hand weapon, everything else is unbalanced:
- Allowing str and dex bonuses to stack is broken.
- Allowing dex to supersede a horrific str bonus is broken for small or tiny creatures... and even for PCs it allows str dumping. Bad idea, arguments see above.
Using only a str penalty but not a bonus while allowing dex to work is a big advantage but not prone to abuse.

I have a swashbuckler with very good Int and Str in my group... And I can't honestly say that this class is weak if you have several good attributes.

MAD classes are generally pretty weak, but grow faster in strength if high ability scores are available.

I know that it can look like allowing str and dex to stack is horrifically broken... but I'm pretty sure it simply does not play out that way. Can you stat up someone who gets an insane return on investment (without going above 32 point buy or using LA buyoff)? I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Mort]

Weapon Finesse: requires +1 BaB, NOT given as a bonus feat for swordsages.
Weapon Focus: requires proficiency and +1 BaB, IS given as a bonus feat for swordsages for a class on weapons.
Both abbreviate to WF...

absolutely correct - was doing too many things at once and switched weapon focus and weapon finesse in my head - so ignore my prior 2 posts. I suppose I could edit them for stupidity - but I'll leave them out there. So yes the build works starting at lvl 3.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Check out the Beshadowed Blade build.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmm? How do you get a +7 to hit at 1st level?

Weapon Finesse requires +1 BAB. Swordsages have a +0 BAB at level 1. Am I missing something and shouldn't he have an ATK of -2?

Furthermore, with a STR score of only 6, shouldn't he be as a halfling be at least be on medium encumberance? Chain shirt for small creatures weighs 20 lbs which by itself (not even counting anything else including sword, potions, clothes etc) puts the halfling at medium encumberance which then means the halfling has a AC DEX maximum of only +3?

Because he was playing starting at level 3ish and I tried unsuccessfully to reverse engineer him He must have had Weapon Finesse at level 3 then.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

But doesn't that explicitly stop the "drop STR to min, use DEX, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse?" exploit everyone was worried about?

Changing your whole playstyle to nerf one powerful combo that might not even need nerfing and that can be negated easier isn't something everyone will readily do.


Of course, many of those who don't recalculate the encumbrance level with ever extra grain of sand in the character's shoes will still step in if some things go too far. A character with str 6 that wants to wear armour might fit that description.