Warblade/Swordsage questions

Kae'Yoss said:
Changing your whole playstyle to nerf one powerful combo that might not even need nerfing and that can be negated easier isn't something everyone will readily do.


Of course, many of those who don't recalculate the encumbrance level with ever extra grain of sand in the character's shoes will still step in if some things go too far. A character with str 6 that wants to wear armour might fit that description.
We actually do use encumbrance. Surprisingly, a Small character with Str 6 can wear more than a Medium character with Str 8. To wit, the quoted weight of Size Small Chain Shirt in post 19 is false--it is in fact 12.5 pounds. Because of this, the Str 6 Halfling (Light Load up to 15 pounds) was fine with a Chain Shirt and Short Sword. Everything else of his stuff was kept on the pirate ship.

AllisterH said:
But doesn't that explicitly stop the "drop STR to min, use DEX, Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse?" exploit everyone was worried about?

I actually don't have too much of a problem with it if you play it this way (a la the chart). I did allow the player to do it, after all. I have a major problem with the feat if played strictly using the body text where you don't drop Str to min and allow the player to use both Str and Dex together.
 
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Rystil Arden said:
We actually do use encumbrance. Surprisingly, a Small character with Str 6 can wear more than a Medium character with Str 8. To wit, the quoted weight of Size Small Chain Shirt in post 19 is false--it is in fact 12.5 pounds. Because of this, the Str 6 Halfling (Light Load up to 15 pounds) was fine with a Chain Shirt and Short Sword. Everything else of his stuff was kept on the pirate ship.
.

I was looking at chainmail...wrong item. You're correct that chain shirt only weighs 12.5 lbs and the sword basically weighs 1.5 lbs but unless the character literally is wearing nothing else (including clothes), they should STILL hit medium encuberance.

In fact, if you use the "add dex to str", your friend would actually only have a bonus of +3 to your damage roll.
 

AllisterH said:
I was looking at chainmail...wrong item. You're correct that chain shirt only weighs 12.5 lbs and the sword basically weighs 1.5 lbs but unless the character literally is wearing nothing else (including clothes), they should STILL hit medium encuberance.

In fact, if you use the "add dex to str", your friend would actually only have a bonus of +3 to your damage roll.
Again, not correct. Clothes do not count against weight, by RAW (PH page 131, I believe).

As for "add Dex to Str", yes of course, as mentioned many times and quite obviously, the low Str case is the one where that option is actually weaker. But frankly, having 6 Strength has many other serious repercussions. Unless I did something like Darklone's suggestion, which works in both cases, I would much much much rather limit the damage in the case where neither stat is at a penalty (which, as I said, is pretty much automatically going to be the case for anyone who is actually meleeing and would otherwise be taking a Str penalty to damage by higher levels, at least in every game I've played, including characters that were Pixies, etc).
 
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Kraydak said:
I know that it can look like allowing str and dex to stack is horrifically broken... but I'm pretty sure it simply does not play out that way. Can you stat up someone who gets an insane return on investment (without going above 32 point buy or using LA buyoff)? I'm just not seeing it.
Not with point buy 28 like I use to use, but people discussing these topics here often use much higher point buys or ability generation methods like 5d6 drop lowest...
 

Darklone said:
Not with point buy 28 like I use to use, but people discussing these topics here often use much higher point buys or ability generation methods like 5d6 drop lowest...

Really then, why worry about making houserules for non-standard creatures? Pixies aren't really expected to be player characters AND anything over 32 pt buy you're already straining the system.
 

Yep. Per the PHB, your worn outfit does not count towards your own encumbrance (though it does count when determining how much encumbrance another guy has if he tries carrying you around).

I track encumbrance usually (and always when I'm playing, not DMing).

Anyway, I tried analyzing a low-level Swordsage versus a low-level Fighter (well, a Swordsage 1 who goes to Fighter 2, then back to Swordsage, compared to a pure Fighter). Turns out that, unless you got 17 or 18 Dex and Str both, they're evenly matched for several levels if you interpret Shadow Blade as 'Dex to damage alongside Str' (though I normally interpret it as 'Dex to damage instead of Str').

I used a spiked chain comparison, and it turned out that the Swordsage had a bit more AC at 2nd-level, but the Fighter could Power Attack for 2 more points of damage around 3rd or 5th level (it wasn't until 4th that the Swordsage 2/Fighter 2 got their Wis to AC ability, so until then they'd be wearing the same armor as the Fighter; the Fighter could Power Attack sooner, when the Swordsage/Fighter was using Combat Expertise, but it evened out again after that).

At upper levels it would certainly be in the Swordsage's favor with Shadow Blade adding Dex to damage along with Str to damage, but not before 10th or 12th level probably, when they'd have enough wealth for the right magic item combos for more Dex and Str (can't use Gauntlets of Ogre Power at the same time as Gloves of Dexterity, so they'd have to be able to afford a Belt of Giant Strength +4 before they could get both abilities boosted enough). The Fighter's Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization would make up for some of it, and at certain levels his extra Power Attack potential from higher Base Attack Bonus (and the GWF's attack bonus allowing him to spend more on PA without missing too often) wins out, but eventually the Swordsage X/Fighter 2 may be more damaging with Shadow Blade, since neither can afford to Power Attack too much lest they miss far too often on the attack.

Especially since the Swordsage will be using lots of maneuvers (which will yield more bonus damage than Power Attack sometimes, and without any of the reduction in attack bonus).


So..... If not for the fact that Swordsages can do even more damage with maneuvers than Fighters could, it would be fine until upper levels to let Shadow Blade be interpreted as 'Dex to damage alongside Str'. But the maneuvers make it too much, considering the Swordsage is much more capable outside of battle (and has more useful skills for battle too, like Tumble) and will often do more damage through maneuvers. Being able to add Shadow Blade's Dex to damage alongside Str will probably be too much.

Without that extra damage, they're probably fine alongside Fighters. So I'm inclined to consider Shadow Blade is meant to be interpreted as 'Dex instead of Str for damage'.
 

Getting back to races, I imagine that Warforged would make good Warblades, though the wis penalty would hurt them as Swordsages.

Goblins would make good Swordsages (30' move and darkvision? Shadow Handerific!).

Goliaths would make...interesting Swordsages with the Setting Sun stuff that is all Trip based. I think. I haven't got the book that details the Goliath with me.

An Elan Crusader would be more unkillable than usual, I think, since they have that "get the hp back" deal.
 

Particle_Man said:
Getting back to races, I imagine that Warforged would make good Warblades, though the wis penalty would hurt them as Swordsages.

Goblins would make good Swordsages (30' move and darkvision? Shadow Handerific!).

Goliaths would make...interesting Swordsages with the Setting Sun stuff that is all Trip based. I think. I haven't got the book that details the Goliath with me.

An Elan Crusader would be more unkillable than usual, I think, since they have that "get the hp back" deal.
Eh, Elan Crusader isn't that great--if you don't play a Psionic race, you can't do almost anything with the Elan racials, since unlike Kalashtar, Elan only get a static number of PP, and at high levels, unless you're getting the PP somewhere else (by being a Psionic class), they're completely worthless.
 

Particle_Man said:
An Elan Crusader would be more unkillable than usual, I think, since they have that "get the hp back" deal.
He'd suck, because he'd have exactly two power points to spend on his racial abilities. Elans need to be manifesters. :(

Elan Crusader / Psion / Jade Phoenix Mind would be kinda sexy, though. Well, except for the Charisma penalty...

Oh, I see I've been ninja'd.

- - -

Goblin Swordsages are part of my setting ever since Bo9S. Likewise, Hobgoblin Swordsages and Hobgoblin Warblades. Bugbears even get in on the love. (Crusaders are too complex for my more common NPCs ... pesky recovery mechanic.)

- - -

IMHO, Warforged Crusader is where the action is. Healing that's not a Conjuration (Healing)? Yes please! Also, they synergize into the ultimate non-stop fighting machine. ("It does not sleep. It waits.")

Cheers, -- N
 

IMHO, Warforged Crusader is where the action is. Healing that's not a Conjuration (Healing)? Yes please! Also, they synergize into the ultimate non-stop fighting machine. ("It does not sleep. It waits.")

Oh, that's a good point! The only trouble is that if wearing the Adamantine plating, it wouldn't stack with manoeuvres that grant DR, but I have no doubt that with a Warforged, improvements can be made to the 'invincible' Crusader I used to playtest the class which beat CR-appropriate opponents infinitely without ever stopping. Then again, if you're using the Warforged race and the Crusader class (arguable the strongest of the three in Bo9S), I guess you'd expect it to be incredibly strong.
 

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