Warden Armor Class

[Mengu]

A warden does need to strive for a starting 18 in Con or Wis post racial. This puts him in pace with scale at level 1. Even if he can't, he'll be 1 point behind.

Whatever you lose in AC down the road, you gain by shedding off status effects at the beginning of your turn, and with more hit points. All ongoing damage is practically halved on a Warden. They also get enough saves to make it more worthwhile optimizing their saving throw bonus through items and feats.

In my experience, those extra saving throws stop so much more pain than a couple points of AC would.

 

[Felon]

He took what is essentially a striker Paragon Path and he is a mega-tank?

I've heard this meme a few times over in that May-nerf thread. Is the main reason you guys bandy around the "striker" label because he gets a damage boost in the round that he spends an AP? He gets a gratas+1 AC all the time, so yeah, the PF"s a tank on top of whatever else you wanna call him.

Con Wardens can take Second Skin at epic, better then armor spec. A fighter will have 25+spec+PP (assuming pit fighter)+armor+enhance+shield at 30. That is 48 AC... exactly what a Warden will have. Without forms. In forms a Warden will usually have at least +1 to AC (more with Mark of Warding), if not more (level 15 daily has +2 AC, for instance). Reflex and Will will be semi-weak with either Earthstrength or Storm Wardens, but on the other hand you can second wind 3 times an encounter and each time add your con mod to all defenses. In addition to the normal bonus. That is +10 to all defenses 3 times/encounter, with your mark as a free action. Even a non-dwarf can make many of those free/minor actions every day. For a Dwarf of course they are all minors. If you're a Goliath when you SW enemies take an additional penalty to hit anyone who isn't you equal to your con mod. So -10 to hit not you, and you have +10 to all defenses. Oh, and you have around 50 more HP during epic and almost 20 surges.

Warden AC is fine.

Gotta be honest, I don't get what you're going on about. The character in question isn't epic-level. He's 11th.

Your friend is a whiner if he thinks warden AC is no good. All characters are a little dodgey the first 2-3 levels, but once he finds his stride he'll realize that a properly built warden is nearly unkillable.

In fact, one thing I will caution warden players about is making their warden TOO beefy. It gives the enemy less incentive to attack you. Concentrate on builds that make your warden sticky. Slow enemies, trip them up, get mark of warding...

You put me in a tough spot here. On the one hand, I lament that the guy is obsessed with outdoing the rest of the party in terms of unbreakability, and that is the main reason he plays the defender role. On the other hand, it's unfair to call the guy a whiner because he likes what he likes. As I said at the beginning, he doesn't have his head as deep in the game as the folks who visit this forum do. He shows up for a game once a week and then goes back to his life. Basically, a perpetual nub, scrub, or whatever MMO pejorative applies.

Looks like the bottom line here is that I can't sell this, not to this guy in this campaign with the ability score array available. Maybe I can get him to try a swordmage.

 

[Aulirophile]

I've heard this meme a few times over in that May-nerf thread. Is the main reason you guys bandy around the "striker" label because he gets a damage boost in the round that he spends an AP? He gets a gratas+1 AC all the time, so yeah, the PF"s a tank on top of whatever else you wanna call him..

...He gets his wis mod added to all damage he does. It is the cornerstone of the highest single-class nova build in the game. Two out of three of the path features focus on damage. All the powers focus on damage with minor status effects. So out of the six things you get from Pit Fighter, fiveare damage oriented, and the daily forces things to move away from the fighter if used to maximum effect. Not a usual defender desire. Pit Fighter is basically the most common reason Striker classes MC into Fighter, even ones that have no str investment will do it just for the level 16 feature and the AP benefit. Just like classes with no Dex MC into Rogue for Daggermaster just for the crit range. Because that one feature makes it one of the best striker options.

Gotta be honest, I don't know what you're going on about. Why are you inundating me with epic-level that's not relevant to the 11th-level character we're discussing?

Level 12. 115 HP, 14 surges, 3 times/day he can go into a Form. In two of those Forms he gets +2 to AC, in one his melee reach increases by 1 and he can auto-redirect an attack in his melee reach to himself. SW is +2+1+5+1 to all defenses as a minor action once an encounter. He can use it one encounter twice once a day. He can use it as a standard action to give every ally in close burst 5 15 THP once a day in addition to healing himself and the bonus to defenses. Most of his attacks do str+con, some do str+str+con, and if he is in a form all of them do at least str+con. I only gave him +2 magic items, which for level 12 isn't terribly realistic, so his AC could easily be 30.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 12
Dwarf, Warden, Horned Champion
Build: Wild Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Axe)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 21, Dex 13, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 28 Fort: 24 Reflex: 21 Will: 21
HP: 115 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +13, Endurance +15, Perception +13, Athletics +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +8, History +5, Insight +8, Intimidate +6, Religion +5, Stealth +4, Streetwise +6, Thievery +4

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Mark of Warding
Level 6: Crippling Crush
Level 8: Toughness (retrained to Hide Armor Expertise at Level 11)
Level 10: Crushing Earthstrength
Level 11: Earthstrength Defenses
Level 12: Hammer Rhythm

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Thorn Strike
Warden encounter 1: Tremor Slam
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Warden encounter 3: Rough Strike
Warden daily 5: Form of Mountain's Thunder
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Mountain's Stature
Warden daily 9: Form of the Oak Sentinel
Warden utility 10: Spiritual Rejuvenation

ITEMS
Maw of the Guardian Craghammer +2, Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Battle Harness Hide Armor +2, Heavy Shield
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

 

[Chzbro]

You know the player better than any of us, and if you don't think you can sell him then you probably can't. Were I in your shoes and wanted to make one more push into getting they guy to try a warden, I'd focus on Font of Life and the serious benefits a warden can reap from firing off a daily in each encounter.

Even if your player is extremely casual, at paragon tier he's bound to recognize how important saves are (and he'll surely have been annoyed by dazes, slows and the like). Font of Life pitched as the power that lets a warden shrug off all the debilitating effects that stop other defenders in their tracks can be some powerful mojo. And the forms are also really appealing when presented in the right light. Often casual players don't recognize that (at paragon) they can have each of those forms and the benefits from them running for a full fight 3x per day. Since other class's dailies are more "wait-for-the-right-moment," the warden/barbarian paradigm of "fire-off-a-daily-as-soon-as-you-can" isn't always intuitive.

I think it's worth reminding everyone that the OP didn't ask us to convince HIM that wardens are good, he asked if he was missing anything in the AC analysis for a very specific player. The consensus seems to be that he's not missing anything, and if the guy wants the very best AC he's barking up the wrong defender. However, since the AC isn't that far off, I think it's still worth trying to sell a couple of the other stand-out features of a warden.

If he's still not interested, no big deal. As long as he's having fun, that's all that matters. Still, it's too bad he doesn't have the opportunity to see a warden in play. I find they seem much more like beasts at the table than they do on paper.

 

[Sanzuo]

If it helps, here is a summary of my warden, Volk, at level 11. Some things to take note of; I got a fighter multiclass feat so I could get the Dreadnought paragon path, I have a hammer shield so all my defenses go up a point as long as I hit something.

It's also worth mentioning that before I played a warden I was playing a swordmage. I like the warden better.

[sblock=Volk]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Volk Holmgangsson, level 11
Goliath, Warden, Dreadnought
Guardian Might: Earthstrength

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 18, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 27 Fort: 25 Reflex: 22 Will: 22
HP: 125 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 32

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +16, Perception +12, Endurance +12, Athletics +16, Heal +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, History +6, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Religion +6, Stealth +5, Streetwise +4, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Level 2: Against All Odds (retrained to Paragon Defenses at Level 11)
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 6: Battle Awareness
Level 8: Toughness
Level 10: Mark of Warding
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Hide)
Level 12: Novice Power

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden at-will 1: Thorn Strike
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Bounding Leap
Warden encounter 3: Burst of Earth's Fury
Warden daily 5: Winter's Grip
Warden utility 6: Bear's Endurance
Warden encounter 7: Angry Spirits
Warden daily 9: Form of the Stone Sentinel
Warden utility 10: Earthstride

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Veteran's Hide Armor +2, Hammer Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Bear Headdress (heroic tier), Cloak of the Walking Wounded +2, Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Fundamental Ice (heroic tier) (2), Demonskin Tattoo (heroic tier), Giantkind Gloves (paragon tier), Guardian's Call Warhammer +3, Elderwood Falcon (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Fluid Funds, Knock
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[/sblock]

 

[Felon]

You know the player better than any of us, and if you don't think you can sell him then you probably can't. Were I in your shoes and wanted to make one more push into getting they guy to try a warden, I'd focus on Font of Life and the serious benefits a warden can reap from firing off a daily in each encounter.

Sounds like I'll have to sit down and look at those dailies myself. In regards to shrugging off saved-ends effects, he's been playing a dreadhought, so he's already got pretty good protection in that respect. In fact, I'm starting to have second thoughts about selling him on another class.

 

[cdrcjsn]

As you get higher in level, the ability to make multiple saves will the be the stand out feature of the Warden. High AC doesn't mean squat when you can't stop the bad guys from going around you to hit your allies who have even worse AC because you're stunned, dazed, immobilized, blind, etc.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

As you get higher in level, the ability to make multiple saves will the be the stand out feature of the Warden. High AC doesn't mean squat when you can't stop the bad guys from going around you to hit your allies who have even worse AC because you're stunned, dazed, immobilized, blind, etc.

Yup. It's really the killer thing with the warden in our game. Yes, he gets hit more often (AC 32) than my cleric/pit fighter (AC 34), but he does have the health to soak the damage. But being able to roll a save at the beginning of the round has been incredibly helpful.

Brad

 

[abyssaldeath]

I can't wait to play my 24th lvl Goliath Warden. He is a damage sponge. He has a 40AC and he can use Second Wind twice an encounter with his armor of enduring health. So with the Earthstrength feature and the feats Earthstrength Might, Earthstrength Defenses and Crushing Earthstrength he can make a melee basic attack when he uses second wind and get his con mod(+7) to damage and all defenses.

[sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Egan, level 24
Goliath, Warden, Stoneblessed, Perfect Guardian
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Background: Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much (Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 24, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 40 Fort: 37 Reflex: 30 Will: 31
HP: 202 Surges: 16 Surge Value: 50

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +21, Heal +19, Perception +19, Athletics +27

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Arcana +13, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +14, Endurance +19, History +13, Insight +14, Intimidate +12, Religion +13, Stealth +13, Streetwise +12, Thievery +13

FEATS
Level 1: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 2: Crushing Earthstrength
Level 4: Sudden Roots
Level 6: Guard of Stone
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 10: Courageous Example
Level 11: Unyielding Stone (retrained to Second Skin at Level 23)
Level 12: Earth's Punishment
Level 14: Markings of the Blessed (retrained to Axe Mastery at Level 21)
Level 16: Deadly Axe
Level 18: Devastating Critical (retrained to Ancient Stone at Level 22)
Level 20: Earthstrength Defenses
Level 21: Dazing Fury
Level 22: Earthstrength Might
Level 24: Enduring Font

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Tempest Assault
Warden at-will 1: Warden's Lunge
Warden encounter 1: Roots of Stone
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Erupting Font
Warden encounter 3: Earthgrasp Strike
Warden daily 5: Thunder Step
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Earth Gift
Warden daily 9: Form of the Oak Sentinel
Warden utility 10: Warding Vines
Warden encounter 13: Ponderous Strike (replaces Roots of Stone)
Warden daily 15: Form of the Crushing Mountain (replaces Thunder Step)
Warden utility 16: Vine Poultice
Warden encounter 17: Warden's Lure (replaces Earth Gift)
Warden daily 19: Form of the Rowan Sentinel (replaces Form of Winter's Herald)
Warden utility 22: Strength from Death
Warden encounter 23: Desert Winds (replaces Earthgrasp Strike)

ITEMS
Maw of the Guardian Halberd +5, Stalkerhide Armor of Enduring Health +5, Amulet of Life +5, Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Cord of Foresight (paragon tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Crown of Eyes (paragon tier), Crown of the Dream King (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======[/sblock]

 

[Aulirophile]

Don't forget to take the epic feat that allows you to second wind again once/encounter. Stacks with enduring health armor. So fun.