Warforged ECL 0???? Yeah right!!!!
- Thread starter Gundark
- Start date
joeandsteve
First Post
We hates immuneforgeds, don't we.... thats why we gives them +1 LA!
pweent
Explorer
I'm finally getting a chance to run Eberron for the first time, GMing the Age of Worms. And while I've always been a warforged advocate, I'm rather suprised to find that after our first two sessions, I'm finding our two warforged, one fighter and one cleric, are somewhat rendering our other two players irrelevant. More specifically, their broad set of immunities makes it difficult to do anything much more interesting to them than straight damage. Certainly part of this is due to the specific set of encounters that make up the first part of The Whispering Cairn. A breakdown of encounters so far follows in the spoiler tags:
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That's a pretty significant number of encounters in which the warforged immunities turn what should have been interesting tactical situations into simple matters of who can slug out the most damage the fastest. I don't object to immunities as a rule, but the sheer number the WF have mean they are likely to come into play with WF more than for pretty much any other race/class combo. The tradeoff, in theory, is more difficult healing. In practice, our cleric has access to Repair spells by way of the Warforged domain, and the fighter has the Craft skill for repairs, so thus far they're not feeling much hurt.
I saw the possibility arising and considered tweaking the encounters a bit to challenge the 'forged more. I decided after the firs tsession to let them revel in their strengths for now. After they flesh-races sat out the last two encounters, however, I'm concerned that everyone else may start feeling extraneous. We'll see what I can do to make the next session more challenging. I don't want to turn up the difficulty to the point I start accidentally kiling all my players, though.
I say again - I love the idea of warforged, and am really taken aback at how they're affecting the game in practice. And at the risk of getting into nerf-bat territory, I don't really get the immunity to energy drain - they're living beings now, yes? That's what makes them more than just constructs? That energy drain immunity worries me, especially for an undead-heavy campaign, but I don't want to house-rule it out now - I don't want the players to feel they got a bait-and-switch, and I don't want to go forming house rules after only a couple of play sessions. We'll talk about it next week and see if the other players do in fact feel the party is as lopsided as I do.
[sblock]
- Three wolves. No particular WF advantage or disadvantage here.
- Fire trap: No special imunities.
- Poison gas trap: WF immune to poison.
- Lurking Strangler: Best chance against the warforged, as Adamantine Body doesn't help against touch attacks. The strangler had two ranged touch attacks available, a sleep ray (WF immune) and a fear ray.
- Mad slasher. Again, no particular WF advantage beyond the DR + high AC granted them by the Adamantine Body feat.
- Acid Beetle Swarm. The swarm does high damage against a first level character (d6 + d4 acid) in the unlikely event that they hit. Their most solid tactic is that characters occupying the same space as the swarm must make a Fort save or be nauseated: Warforged immunity.
- Giant Bombardier Beetle: No special defenses; just AC + DR.
- Water Elemental: This encounter and the next are when matters veered towards the ridiculous, as the WF fighter and the WF cleric, under the effect of a light spell, decended on their own into a flooded chamber (no need to breathe), and took on the small water elemental there alone. They retreated, but the fighter took one last swing at the elemental as they reached the stairs to the air again, and took the elemetal out.
- Ghoul: Another underwater fight, again with just the two warforged. Immunity to paralysis and disease meant the two players laughed out loud when they came up against the ghoul.
That's a pretty significant number of encounters in which the warforged immunities turn what should have been interesting tactical situations into simple matters of who can slug out the most damage the fastest. I don't object to immunities as a rule, but the sheer number the WF have mean they are likely to come into play with WF more than for pretty much any other race/class combo. The tradeoff, in theory, is more difficult healing. In practice, our cleric has access to Repair spells by way of the Warforged domain, and the fighter has the Craft skill for repairs, so thus far they're not feeling much hurt.
I saw the possibility arising and considered tweaking the encounters a bit to challenge the 'forged more. I decided after the firs tsession to let them revel in their strengths for now. After they flesh-races sat out the last two encounters, however, I'm concerned that everyone else may start feeling extraneous. We'll see what I can do to make the next session more challenging. I don't want to turn up the difficulty to the point I start accidentally kiling all my players, though.
I say again - I love the idea of warforged, and am really taken aback at how they're affecting the game in practice. And at the risk of getting into nerf-bat territory, I don't really get the immunity to energy drain - they're living beings now, yes? That's what makes them more than just constructs? That energy drain immunity worries me, especially for an undead-heavy campaign, but I don't want to house-rule it out now - I don't want the players to feel they got a bait-and-switch, and I don't want to go forming house rules after only a couple of play sessions. We'll talk about it next week and see if the other players do in fact feel the party is as lopsided as I do.
The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
I think warforged are slightly sucky? They seem to make fairly dodgey wizards/clerics/druids - the power classes, easily, and in a warrior/monk incarnation, they are still woefully unable to fight character level apporiate challenges at high level - and the vaunted immunities don't seem to be an issue either
Examing a level 10 fighter, it's not like a Warforged immunities at make it a significantly better. In one on one fights Vs the 14 CR 10 monsters listed in the Monster Manual, the poison immunity has a role in 4? fights. The CR 10 fights should be split 50/50 according to the rules, and if the warforged immunities where broken, they should really shine here - However, despite the poison immunity, the warforged still isn't going to win ANY of the poison immunity relevant fights, because they are spell casters, or grapple machines.
The most significant occassion is the Bebilith, where the things poison is going to outright slaughter most fighters via massive con damage due to the intense DC on the fort save - a single classed fighter is going to have, what, +10? Lets say he gets a +13 from somewhere - a 50/50 chance to save. However, the Bebilith is instead going to merely grapple the warforged and then rip him to peices - the Monstrous Scorpion is in much the same boat, but is also very leathal in melee combat, able to grapple and squash the warforged.
The spell casters are not going to close and fight the warforged, they are going to keep their distance and pound him with summons and spells. Funding specalist magical gear need to deal with these suckers (flying stuff, stuff that lets you break force effects, blah,blah,blah) is going to be reduced because of the need to repair yourself.
As for level drain - fixing that is a second level spell. Seriously, that comes free with a box of cornflakes.
So basically, warforged still lose when their ability actually matters, and then have to pay actual money for the privledge of having immunities that at mid to high level don't make a difference.
Bottom line: Warforged make unpowered characters better, and suck if you are playing a "power concept." They probably rock really hard at levels 1-4? where getting poisoned or level drained actually still matters, but after that, well.. they suck.
Examing a level 10 fighter, it's not like a Warforged immunities at make it a significantly better. In one on one fights Vs the 14 CR 10 monsters listed in the Monster Manual, the poison immunity has a role in 4? fights. The CR 10 fights should be split 50/50 according to the rules, and if the warforged immunities where broken, they should really shine here - However, despite the poison immunity, the warforged still isn't going to win ANY of the poison immunity relevant fights, because they are spell casters, or grapple machines.
The most significant occassion is the Bebilith, where the things poison is going to outright slaughter most fighters via massive con damage due to the intense DC on the fort save - a single classed fighter is going to have, what, +10? Lets say he gets a +13 from somewhere - a 50/50 chance to save. However, the Bebilith is instead going to merely grapple the warforged and then rip him to peices - the Monstrous Scorpion is in much the same boat, but is also very leathal in melee combat, able to grapple and squash the warforged.
The spell casters are not going to close and fight the warforged, they are going to keep their distance and pound him with summons and spells. Funding specalist magical gear need to deal with these suckers (flying stuff, stuff that lets you break force effects, blah,blah,blah) is going to be reduced because of the need to repair yourself.
As for level drain - fixing that is a second level spell. Seriously, that comes free with a box of cornflakes.
So basically, warforged still lose when their ability actually matters, and then have to pay actual money for the privledge of having immunities that at mid to high level don't make a difference.
Bottom line: Warforged make unpowered characters better, and suck if you are playing a "power concept." They probably rock really hard at levels 1-4? where getting poisoned or level drained actually still matters, but after that, well.. they suck.
Victim
First Post
shilsen said:
Even if it was a second level spell, the 3 round casting time on the restoration line makes in-combat use rather unweildy. The actual chance of level drain isn't that important compared to death or crippling (possibly leading to death) in combat via negative levels.
The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
shilsen said:
Curses, you are correct! I retract that portion of my statement, but again note that it is still has no effect in any of the CR 10 encounters in the book
the iconic Fighter 10 warforged is still going to get squashed, immunities or no.I'll scope out for some challenges where level drain is an issue.. I'm pretty sure they are going to fall into the same boat as the poision challenges before - where the poision immunity thing just means you get squashed in close combat or by spells instead.
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