Warhorses attacking

[Quasqueton]

Will a warhorse attack on its own without the rider "telling" it to?

There is a ride check for the rider and horse to both attack, but what if the rider does not care to attack himself? Is it just a matter of riding the horse up to a foe, and the horse will automatically attack the foe?

We had a debate in our game the other night about this. Some were saying that all you had to do was move the war horse up to the enemy, and it would fight without the rider needing any kind of ride or handle animal check (so long as the rider wasn't trying to attack also). Others were saying that war horses were trained to be calm in battle and let the rider fight, unless the rider made a ride or handle animal check to make the horse fight. But the rules say nothing of this.

If the former is correct, and all you have to do is get the mount to the enemy for it to start attacking, then does the rider have to make a ride/handle animal check to prevent the mount from attacking?

Some characters want war horses so they can ride into battle and fight on horseback (without the mount fighting also). Some apparently want war horses so they can ride into battle and have the horse fight for them (without themselves fighting). Both are legitimate tactics. But they are also opposing assumptions about how the war horse will act.

So, when riding a war horse into battle, does it automatically attack? If so, what is the check to prevent it from attacking? If not, what is the check to prompt it to attack?

I've always played war horses as not attacking unless you want them to. But I can't find any rule in the books stating this. Nor can I find a rule stating they automatically attack.

Help, please.

Quasqueton

 

[CCamfield]

I thought I had this clear in my head until I read your post.

First, though, nowhere does it say that a warhorse will attack on its own. I suppose if your character was down on the ground being bludgeoned to death by orcs it might recognize its master was in danger and attack.

I seem to have missed it in play, but if you want to order a warhorse to attack, that would be a Handle Animal task (DC 10 + 2 if the horse is wounded), as "Attack" is a trick. After that, it would keep on attacking.

There's also a DC 10 Ride check (free action) to "fight with warhorse". I believe that would be to be able to attack as well as hang onto your horse?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It is quite ambiguous by the rules.

The preferred warhorse of the last 200 years is the quarterhorse -- a very calm breed of workhorse that does not startle from the sound of gunfire.

The preferred warhorse of the medieval era would have had the temperment for the full-fledged contact sport of war. It should be responsive to the rider's directions yet it could not be shy about the occasional bump with other horses and should kick and bite if pressed close -- particularly by infantry (and it could not necessarily distinguish between friend and foe). The last point is particularly important to discourage footmen from grappling the rider.

I will think about it some more and respond to the thread again when I have some ideas.

 

[dcollins]

Here's an answer based on 3.0 rules, I assume 3.5 is the same. My answer is this: "A warhorse will attack, not 'automatically', but any time its rider directs it to. No check is necessary."

The Handle Animal skill doesn't mention mounts anywhere, that's what Ride is for. The tricks under Handle Animal are for directing an animal at a distance that you're not riding -- the attack "trick" language I see is "fighting beside troops", i.e., on its own, not as a mount.

The Ride check for "fight with warhorse (DC 10)" specifically says this:

If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally.

So, the only check necessary if you want both horse & rider to attack at the same time. Nowhere is there a DC listed for "direct your war-trained mount to attack". For warhorses, that counts under "typical riding actions don't require checks". This is exactly repeated in the MM p. 196-197, where it says a "warhorse can fight while carrying a rider [note no DC], but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds at a Ride check (DC 10)".


Now, as a separate issue one might ask: can you direct a warhorse to fight on its own without a rider? That's more ambiguous, I would I rule "no" to that, assuming something like that really is a "trick" requiring Handle Animal skill.

 

[silentspace]

In 3.0 its pretty unclear. From what I've seen most people play that the horse will attack if the rider wants it too.

In 3.5 its much clearer. Animals know tricks. If it's a warhorse, it's already been trained in "Combat Riding", which includes the "Attack" trick. Getting an animal to do a trick it knows (such as the Attack trick), requires a Handle Animal check, DC 10.

 

[dcollins]

I just read the 3.5 SRD, and I still don't think that Handle Animal checks are required for a rider to direct a warhorse in combat.

(1) It doesn't make sense that everyone who wants to use a warhorse needs ranks in Handle Animal (it's trained only), and
(2) The Attack trick specifically says "you may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack", which wouldn't be visible to a creature from a rider on its back.

All the other Handle Animal tricks are directing an animal from a distance (e.g., come, defend, guard, down, heel). It seems that so is "attack". There's no particular trick necessary for just riding an animal, or with directing a warhorse from the saddle. What does make sense is the Handle Animal check to direct a warhorse to attack when you're not riding it.

But, then again, who knows, crazy stuff happens in 3.5.

 

[silentspace]

That could be true, that it only applies to warhorses that aren't being ridden. Here's what we do in our 3.0 game...

-Warhorses/riding dogs attack at the rider's will. The command to attack is a free action.
-Warhorses/riding dogs that aren't ridden will attack if their owners make a successful Handle Animal check.

Its sort of a hybrid, I guess. I wonder if there's been any official clarification?

 

[Vaxalon]

The preferred warhorse of the last 200 years is the quarterhorse -- a very calm breed of workhorse that does not startle from the sound of gunfire.

Uh, no. That would be a cavalry horse. Big difference.

The preferred warhorse of the medieval era would have had the temperment for the full-fledged contact sport of war. It should be responsive to the rider's directions yet it could not be shy about the occasional bump with other horses and should kick and bite if pressed close -- particularly by infantry (and it could not necessarily distinguish between friend and foe). The last point is particularly important to discourage footmen from grappling the rider.

The breeds for this were generally very large, in order to be able to bear the rider and his armor and gear. Clydesdales, for example.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Uh, no. That would be a cavalry horse. Big difference.

If we were talking about, say, the US Civil War then the quarterhorse would be an appropriate typical example. I was just trying to point out that "modern warhorses", e.g. cavalry, are very different than warhorses of earlier years.

The breeds for this were generally very large, in order to be able to bear the rider and his armor and gear. Clydesdales, for example.

The thing about Clydesdales is, yes, they were adopted to the warhorse role with the appearance of very heavy armors by which time knighthood as we think of it was already well into decline. The Clydesdales are a heavy work breed, selected for being very strong, calm, and easy to handle. Tempermentally they are entirely different from what we would expect from the "classic" warhorse.

 

[FireLance]

I just read the 3.5 SRD, and I still don't think that Handle Animal checks are required for a rider to direct a warhorse in combat.

(1) It doesn't make sense that everyone who wants to use a warhorse needs ranks in Handle Animal (it's trained only), and

I think you missed the part that says, "Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can’t teach, rear, or train animals."

Since a warhorse is trained for the general purpose of combat riding, which includes the Attack trick, anyone can order it to attack with a reasonable chance of success (DC 10) even if he has no ranks in Handle Animal.

(2) The Attack trick specifically says "you may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack", which wouldn't be visible to a creature from a rider on its back.

Technically, this does not preclude other means of indicating a target, e.g. the rider moves the horse's head by tugging on the reins, and the warhorse is trained to attack whatever is in the centre of its field of vision when the command is given.

But, then again, who knows, crazy stuff happens in 3.5.

Indeed. Technically, an opponent with enough ranks in Handle Animal can order your trained horses, dogs, etc. to attack you and your companions with a successful DC 10 check. So much for loyalty, eh?