Level Up (A5E) Warlock Archetype Curse scaling & Herald multiclassing

[Tessarael]

My main point with the suggestion to switch Herald over to a purely exertion point mechanic was to avoid them getting a bunch of exertion points with a level dip into Fighter. If Herald still gets spell slots, it doesn't solve that problem.

 

[Anonymous3]

My main point with the suggestion to switch Herald over to a purely exertion point mechanic was to avoid them getting a bunch of exertion points with a level dip into Fighter. If Herald still gets spell slots, it doesn't solve that problem.

I understand what you're suggesting and I think there is merit in it. My only reservation is that it appears to be a rework of the entire class and that is a hard sell. My suggestion was coming from a place where small changes to the original wording would put it in a good place for multiclassing purposes which is where the main problem appears to be.

Furthermore, I think it could be argued that the Fighter is the problem in the MC and not the Herald. For instance, a Wizard/Fighter MC gets the full benefit of exertion but without the increase in maneuver degrees. I don't think it is quite a big of an issue as the Herald/Fighter combination but I'm sure someone will find a situation where it is - whether it's now or in the future.

 

[Anonymous3]

This should be a different post at this stage but I will include this here anyway.
Perhaps a simpler way to resolve this might be to just remove the exception for Heralds on p378 under Combat Maneuvers. Now if you start with a Fighter then you get it's exertion pool. If you start with Herald then you get it's temporary exertion pool only. I would personally change the wording to:
"The herald is an exception to this rule. If your first levels are in the herald class, you gain an exertion pool equal 3. You regain exertion spent from this pool at the end of a short or long rest.". The additional bonus to exertion is similar to the Martial Scholar feat.

Slap on the other rules (1-3) if you want to reign it in further.

 

[Tessarael]

Yes. If the exertion points from the Fighter dip are lower, it is much more reasonable.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

the problem with reducing exertion from a fighter dip is that the multiclassing rules exist as is to prevent multiclassing inconsistency. the way @Anonymous3 worded that change, starting a ferald build with fighter would be even better then RAW because you'd have fighter exertion, herald slots, AND an extra 3 exertion, while a ferald build starting with herald would be significantly worse without fighter exertion. that's silly - especially so because you've made ferald more broken, but only if you understand that idiosyncrasy.

on the other hand, if you just say a character with herald levels can NEVER have an exertion pool not created by herald slots, herald/any martial has the strange effect of removing a class feature, which isn't a thing with any other multiclass in the game.

i think converting herald into an exertion caster is really the only way to unbreak ferald. either that, or making it so heralds need to "cast" maneuvers using spell slots of equal level to the degree of the maneuver. or changing how maneuver degrees are accrued via multiclassing (though this would require standardizing maneuver degree progression, which...is intentionally not standardized for reasons i will never understand).

 

[Anonymous3]

Good point. I did not realise I would contradict myself in the same post. My intention was that you would one exertion pool or the other not both etc.

I thought the MC inconsistency existed already. A figther/wizard is different from a wizard/fighter - no?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I thought the MC inconsistency existed already. A figther/wizard is different from a wizard/fighter - no?

do you mean in terms of proficiencies? proficiencies do interact kind of weirdly with multiclassing, that is true, but they're their own thing separate from most other class features.

 

[Anonymous3]

Yes, proficiencies and saving throws.
Overall, I think it's possible to bring the MC in line - use wording that doesn't accidently give the player a boon

Regarding @Tessarael 's idea for converting Herald's into an exertion caster, there is the Night Master feat that does this.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Yes, proficiencies and saving throws.

i was mentally including saves under proficiencies, but fair enough to spell it out.

Overall, I think it's possible to bring the MC in line - use wording that doesn't accidently give the player a boon

i think the easiest way would still just be to change how maneuver degree progression works with multiclassing.

Regarding @Tessarael 's idea for converting Herald's into an exertion caster, there is the Night Master feat that does this.

there's also the warlock's spell point values, which would probably work better for a proper half caster. spending 2/3/5/6/7 exertion is a little more reasonable then 2/4/6/8/10 exertion when casting spells is a main part of your class and you don't have to account for spells beyond level 5.

 

[Anonymous3]

there's also the warlock's spell point values, which would probably work better for a proper half caster.

Do you mean that the spell points can be used as exertion?
"You can convert spell points into exertion at the start of your turn"?

Would that open the door for Warlock dips? Herald currently has in place that they can only convert Herald spell slots into exertion so Warlock and Sorcerer cannot be abused.