Warlock Patron: the Crone (please review!)

[Guest 6801328]

Patron: the Crone

Patron Spells:
1st: Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Ray of Sickness
2nd:Reduce/Enlarge, Misty Step
3rd: Bestow Curse, Lightning Bolt
4th: Arcane Eye, Polymorph
5th: Animate Objects, Mislead


Eye of Newt, Wing of Bat
At 1st level when this Patron is selected the Warlock gains proficiency in the Herbalist’s Kit, if he or she did not already have it. In addition, the Warlock gains knowledge in the use of unusual ingredients in the herbalist’s craft, and these ingredients can often be harvested from freshly slain monsters of the sort commonly encountered by adventurers. When the Warlock uses the Herbalist’s Kit during Down Time, crafting takes half the time or costs half as much (player’s choice.)

Note: I love this one for flavor, but by itself it's not powerful enough for the 1st level ability.

Black Magic
Also at 1st level, the Warlock can use a bonus action to curse a target he can see within 60'. If the target fails a Wisdom saving throw it takes 1d4 necrotic damage every time it makes an attack or casts a spell. The curse can be maintained with Concentration for as long as the target remains visible and within that range. At level 5 the Warlock can maintain Concentration on two targets simultaneously, and at level 11 this increases to 3 targets.

Jinx
Starting at 6th level, when the Warlock is hit by a spell or attack that does damage the Warlock may use his reaction to cast a spell at the attacker. The spell must target a single creature, and only spells that require a Wisdom saving throw may be used. If the spell is fully resisted then no spell slot (or other similar resource, such as a racial use) is consumed. This ability may be used once per short rest.

Fetish
At 9th level the Warlock learns how to make small charms of good or bad luck. During a long rest the Warlock can make a charm that, when carried close to the body, confers Advantage or Disadvantage on one type of saving throw, specified by the Warlock. The fetish may be given to somebody else, but the Warlock may only make one such item at a time; if another is made the previous one loses its enchantment. Ideally these fetishes are attuned to the bearer by incorporating hair, nail clippings, blood, and the like into their construction. If such ingredients are not included, then the fetish will lose its magic the first time it fails (that is, the wearer fails with an Advantage fetish, or succeeds with a Disadvantage fetish, on a saving throw of the relevant type).

Cackle
Starting at 14th level the Warlock acquires a mocking laughter that enemies find deeply unnerving. When the Warlock uses an Action to Cackle, all enemies within 60’ who can hear the Warlock must succeed at a Charisma saving throw or suffer Disadvantage on their attacks, ability checks, and saving throws until the Warlock’s next turn. This ability may be used as many times as the Warlock’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1), and all uses are regained after a Short or Long Rest.


Change log:
- Level 1 Black Magic as a curse is added.
- The former Black Magic is renamed to Jinx, and the former Jinx removed
- Black Magic can only use Wisdom saving throw spells now.
- Tweaked Fetish slightly to be more protected against losing its magic.
- Moved Cackle to capstone but added saving throws to rolls affected
- Replaced Ensorcelled Servant with Fetish
- Moved Black Magic to 1st level (expanded spell list has two appropriate 1st level spells)
- Moved Jinx to 6th level and made it a bonus spell known.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Nice atmosphere. Definitely a creepy type of warlock.

Patron spells are good. My only concern is that bestow curse for warlocks is an invocation (sign of ill omens), and it may not be kosher to give a spell that is part of an invocation. I might replace it with plant growth.

I think I would change the text of cackle to "you know the viscous mockery cantrip."

Bad Luck is really good. I like it.

The 10th level abilities seem to be defensive, rather than minion-y. I would let chainlocks get broom of animated attack as a familiar to get the ensorcelled servant idea in there. To fit the hex idea, the 10th level ability could be involuntary ward: beginning at 10th level, your patron teaches you how to make those you have cursed protect you. If you have hex or bestow curse (sign of ill omens) active on an enemy you can see, you can chose to drop the spell, but in doing so, the enemy temporarily knows warding bond, and is forced to cast it with you as the beneficiary (even if it can not otherwise cast spells, no components). The enemy cannot dismiss the spell. This would be particularly good for a bladelock (who could just recast hex on the target) who is cheating as a duelist.

Jinx is nice in theory, but 7 is a lot of things to keep track of for the poor DM. Maybe something like: beginning at 14th level, when you use hex or bestow curse (sign of ill omens) on a target, all allies of the target the same disadvantage on ability checks that the target has while within 20 feet of the target.

 

[Yunru]

I think I would change the text of cackle to "you know the viscous mockery cantrip."

?? The two aren't even remotely similar.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

?? The two aren't even remotely similar.

I could have said that better, but cackle as written is a bit overpowered for a 1st level ability, and viscous mockery gets in the disadvantage to attacks (although only for 1 target), while being thematically consistent.

To be honest, cackle as written would be a nice 6th level ability (but I like bad luck better), or powered up a bit as a 14th level ability (maybe disadvantage on saves and attacks instead of attacks)--actually I like that better than the one I suggested.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I could have said that better, but cackle as written is a bit overpowered for a 1st level ability, and viscous mockery gets in the disadvantage to attacks (although only for 1 target), while being thematically consistent.

To be honest, cackle as written would be a nice 6th level ability (but I like bad luck better), or powered up a bit as a 14th level ability (maybe disadvantage on saves and attacks instead of attacks)--actually I like that better than the one I suggested.

I actually quite like that. Disadvantage on Saves is much more powerful than on attacks, or can be if used well with team tactics. Plus there's already a fair bit of similarity between Jinx and Cackle, so folding those into one ability would be good.

I'll need to re-think 1st level ability. Just giving a cantrip probably isn't the solution for Warlocks, though.

 

[Guest 6801328]

My only concern is that bestow curse for warlocks is an invocation (sign of ill omens), and it may not be kosher to give a spell that is part of an invocation.

And that's a good catch. I'll change it to something else.

EDIT:

Another option might be Stinking Cloud, or possibly Phantom Steed if I change the level 9 ability.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

How about this for the first level ability:

Crone's torment: At 1st level, you know the viscous mockery cantrip. Additionally, if you acquire the blood, hair, or a treasured personal item of a creature, you can make a fetish. While you are focusing on the fetish, you know the location and general emotional state of the creature. Once per long rest, you can cast viscous mockery on the fetish and it will affect the creature as long as it is on the same plane as you and not within a magic circle or hallowed area. If you know the hex spell, once per long rest you can cast or transfer the hex spell to the fetish and it will affect the creature. You can only focus on one fetish at time, although you can have 1 per warlock level (or CR for NPC's); creating a new fetish in excess of this limit destroys the oldest fetish you have. Focusing on the fetish does not count as concentration, but it does give you disadvantage on initiative roles and the dungeon master may decide you are surprised at the start of combat. Fetishes show as magical under detect magic and glow when seen with true seeing, even if inactive. A successful arcana check of DC 10+your warlock level (or CR level) will enable anyone who inspects the fetish to determine it is a fetish and who its creator is. Dispell magic, remove curse, (either of the former cast on the creature or the fetish) or 1 point of fire or radiant damage per your warlock level (or CR level) applied to the fetish will permanently destroy it. The warlock can destroy it with a bonus action, as long as he/she/it can see the fetish.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I thought about fetishes/charms. Flavor-wise I love your ideas, but I worry that it's too story-dependent to be universally applicable. That is, if you're in a campaign where there's just never an opportunity/application to both gather toenail clippings AND have that be useful, then it's a wasted ability.

Here is one of my charm/fetish ideas:

- Level 9: During a long rest you can fashion a charm that gives Advantage to one type of saving throw. You can give the charm to somebody else, but if you make another one the previous one loses its power. If you fail one of those saving throws the charm loses its magic.

EDIT: Oooh...even better idea...the charm can be made to give Advantage or Disadvantage. Fewer use cases for the latter, but if you can convince somebody to carry it there is some fun RP/story to be had.

The other thing I've been thinking about is something to replace Hex, just because it's such an overused staple of Warlocks. So something that would use Concentration and/or Bonus Action. Like maybe a Vicious Mockery kind of debuff, but that could be maintained from turn to turn.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Ok, check out the changes!

 

[1Mac]

Good idea! Is the crone a former mortal, like the Undying patron from the Sword Coast guide? Or a supernatural entity, like the crone aspect of the threefold goddess?

-Two first level abilities is unusual, but as you say the one is basically a "ribbon," so probably not a big deal.

-For jinx, why not say, "You add Hex as a bonus spell known," then continue as written?

-Black Magic is good, though it seems weird that you couldn't also use it with an invocation (maybe except Eldritch Blast if that's your concern!).

-Fetish is cool. I really like the idea of it being made to grant disadvantage, but in practice I don't see it coming up. You'd need a much bigger payoff that a chance to successfully cast one spell. How about make it like a voodoo doll; you take an action and grant disadvantage on one save, and can keep doing so until the fetish is taken away from you. You could still keep the RP element by requiring a piece of hair or cloth or something from the target to make it. Or maybe don't require it, but it gives you some edge, like you can only use it indefinitely if you have a memento.

-Cackle, great. Almost a bard type power.

Like I said, great idea.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Nice. It looks fun to play.

I had one more thought on the 1st level ability--evil eye: if the warlock is hit with a melee attack or a spell with range touch, the warlock can use his/her/its reaction to force the attacker to reroll with disadvantage. I thought about limiting this, but there are a bunch of other things competing for the warlock's reaction.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Good idea! Is the crone a former mortal, like the Undying patron from the Sword Coast guide? Or a supernatural entity, like the crone aspect of the threefold goddess?

Not sure...I actually almost named it "the Three Sisters", so that's definitely one of the concepts I was thinking of.

-Two first level abilities is unusual, but as you say the one is basically a "ribbon," so probably not a big deal.

-For jinx, why not say, "You add Hex as a bonus spell known," then continue as written?

I was trying to avoid granting either extra spell slots or extra spells known because those two limitations are part of the trade-off inherent in the class design. So giving a bonus spell known and making it better than the default seems very powerful for 1st level. I suppose it could be swapped with Black Magic, although at 1st level the only spell that could be used with Black Magic is Charm Person.

-Black Magic is good, though it seems weird that you couldn't also use it with an invocation (maybe except Eldritch Blast if that's your concern!).

I was trying to avoid direct damage attack spells. But I tweaked the language so that things like Chains or Carceri, or perhaps racial abilities, could also be used.

-Fetish is cool. I really like the idea of it being made to grant disadvantage, but in practice I don't see it coming up. You'd need a much bigger payoff that a chance to successfully cast one spell. How about make it like a voodoo doll; you take an action and grant disadvantage on one save, and can keep doing so until the fetish is taken away from you. You could still keep the RP element by requiring a piece of hair or cloth or something from the target to make it. Or maybe don't require it, but it gives you some edge, like you can only use it indefinitely if you have a memento.

How about:
- If you include hair, toenail clippings, etc. of the person using the fetish then the magic is only dispelled if both rolls fail (which for an Advantage fetish would be the case for any failure anyway.)
or
- A Disadvantage fetish loses it's power when a saving throw (of the applicable type) succeeds.

I think I like the first option for flavor.

-Cackle, great. Almost a bard type power.

Like I said, great idea.

Thanks!

 

[Guest 6801328]

Nice. It looks fun to play.

I had one more thought on the 1st level ability--evil eye: if the warlock is hit with a melee attack or a spell with range touch, the warlock can use his/her/its reaction to force the attacker to reroll with disadvantage. I thought about limiting this, but there are a bunch of other things competing for the warlock's reaction.

I thought about this exact thing (although limited to Cha mod times per short rest), and with the same name, but hesitated for three reasons:
"Evil Eye" is already used by Vistani in CoS
The mechanic is identical to Light Cleric's Warding Flare and I was trying to think of something new
Black Magic is "reaction to be attacked" mechanic

 

[Guest 6801328]

I came up with some solutions and made changes.

1) Incorporated the bit about hair or toenails into Fetish
2) Remembered that I had specifically chosen 1st level spells for their expanded list that would apply to Black Magic, so safely moved that to 1st level ability.
3) Rewrote Jinx so that it is a bonus spell, but only in this modified form. So if the Warlock also takes Hex it's identical to the previous version of the ability, but if not then at least they get this version. And since it is a bonus spell (and honestly I thought it was a little OP for 1st level) I moved it up to 6th.

Now I'm positively salivating to actually play this....

 

[Yunru]

Why not have Jinx simply be an improvement to Hex, rather than a clone of it?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Why not have Jinx simply be an improvement to Hex, rather than a clone of it?

Because one of my goals was to mitigate the over-reliance on Hex. If Jinx were an improvement then there would be even more incentive, not less, to make it one of the known spells.

In fact I think I should probably go the opposite direction and not even mention Hex. Just make it a good, non-damaging Concentration spell that doesn't count toward memorized spells. That would make Hex less attractive.

Does that make sense?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Also, Black Magic started off as a concept that the Warlock should be able to turn enemies into newts as a reaction. I toyed around with Polymorph, then started tinkering with a kind of "Lesser Polymorph", and then decided that really it could be any number of things besides turning them into newts. Charms, Holds, Curses, etc. For flavor, and to limit the utility a little bit, I wanted it to be non-damaging spells. So I ended up with "any spell that requires a Constitution or Will saving throw." But note that includes some spells, like Blight, that are direct damaging.

Some other options (in addition to "targets one creature") would be:
1) Any spell with a duration longer than 1 round.
2) Any spell that requires concentration
3) Any spell that doesn't cause direct damage
4) Any spell that requires a Wisdom saving throw

"Targets one creature and doesn't cause direct damage" is probably my favorite. Does that leave the door open to something I'm forgetting?

Thoughts?

 

[1Mac]

At 9th level the Warlock learns how to make small charms of good or bad luck. During a long rest the Warlock can make a charm that, when carried close to the body, confers Advantage or Disadvantage on one type of saving throw, specified by the Warlock. The fetish may be given to somebody else, but the Warlock may only make one such item at a time; if another is made the previous one loses its enchantment. The fetish also loses its magic the first time one of the applicable saving throws is failed. If material from the wearer's body (hair, nail clippings, blood, etc.) is used in the making of the fetish then both die rolls must fail for the magic to dissipate.

I'm trying to figure out what "one of the applicable saving throws" and "both die rolls" mean here. Did you mean to say the fetish works on two different saves?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm trying to figure out what "one of the applicable saving throws" and "both die rolls" mean here. Did you mean to say the fetish works on two different saves?

No, but thanks for the question because it means I have to work on the wording.

"one of the applicable saving throws" means "of the type you make the fetish." I.e., if you fail a Con saving throw with a Con fetish.

"both die rolls" is really only relevant for the Disadvantage type of fetish: it means the magic dissipates if you roll with Disadvantage and both d20's are below the target number. (An Advantage fetish, of course, only fails the roll if that's true so the wording is redundant.)

Maybe I should make the Disadvantage one lose its magic if the wearer succeeds on a saving throw?

I'll tweak the language now.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Tweaked. And changed the rule slightly so that the fetish only loses its dweomer on failure if no body material is included. I figure that will still be a relatively tough criterion to meet for being used offensively, and when used defensively it was maybe too weak the old way. Now when the warlock uses it him/herself it's basically permanent.

I also changed Black Magic to only use Wisdom saving throw spells.

Next question: should Cackle be a bonus action instead of a full action so that the Witch can benefit from her own Cackle (in terms of reduced saving throws)?