Warlock Patron: the Crone (please review!)

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] Nice design on this warlock patron! Write up some flavor and clean it up, and I think with your ideas you could publish it.

As to your question, without a doubt Cackle is plenty potent already as an action. Keep it as an action.

Also, you should clarify that the disadvantage lasts until the start of the warlock's next turn. And you should clarify the range (i.e. "all creatures of your choice within 60 feet who can hear you...").

Starting at 14th level the Warlock acquires a mocking laughter that enemies find deeply unnerving. When the Warlock uses an Action to Cackle, all enemies within 60’ who can hear the Warlock must succeed at a Charisma saving throw or suffer Disadvantage on their attacks, ability checks, and saving throws until the Warlock’s next turn. This ability may be used as many times as the Warlock’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1), and all uses are regained after a Short or Long Rest.

A blanket disadvantage to pretty much all rolls imposed on probably most (if not all) creatures on the game map? And it targets a save that's usually weak for monsters? And the warlock can do it multiple times per short rest?

Definitely should require an action.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] Nice design on this warlock patron! Write up some flavor and clean it up, and I think with your ideas you could publish it.

As to your question, without a doubt Cackle is plenty potent already as an action. Keep it as an action.

Also, you should clarify that the disadvantage lasts until the start of the warlock's next turn. And you should clarify the range (i.e. "all creatures of your choice within 60 feet who can hear you...").

Starting at 14th level the Warlock acquires a mocking laughter that enemies find deeply unnerving. When the Warlock uses an Action to Cackle, all enemies within 60’ who can hear the Warlock must succeed at a Charisma saving throw or suffer Disadvantage on their attacks, ability checks, and saving throws until the Warlock’s next turn. This ability may be used as many times as the Warlock’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1), and all uses are regained after a Short or Long Rest.

A blanket disadvantage to pretty much all rolls imposed on probably most (if not all) creatures on the game map? And it targets a save that's usually weak for monsters? And the warlock can do it multiple times per short rest?

Definitely should require an action.

 

[Guest 6801328]

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] Nice design on this warlock patron! Write up some flavor and clean it up, and I think with your ideas you could publish it.

As to your question, without a doubt Cackle is plenty potent already as an action. Keep it as an action.

Also, you should clarify that the disadvantage lasts until the start of the warlock's next turn. And you should clarify the range (i.e. "all creatures of your choice within 60 feet who can hear you...").

Good call. Thanks.

A blanket disadvantage to pretty much all rolls imposed on probably most (if not all) creatures on the game map? And it targets a save that's usually weak for monsters? And the warlock can do it multiple times per short rest?

Definitely should require an action.

Maybe there should be two versions, as "short Cackle" that is a bonus action but only lasts until the end of the Warlock's current turn, and a "long Cackle" that is a full action but lasts until the beginning of the Warlock's next turn.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Latest idea on this that I'd love some feedback on:

First, I don't love that so many of the abilities are about Advantage/Disadvantage. I was sort of running with the theme of good/bad luck, but 3/4 are in that vein and two of them are too similar in that they impose Disadvantage.

What I've been thinking about is a replacement for Eldritch Blast that does (necrotic) damage over several rounds, instead of all at once, requiring concentration (which I realize is irregular for a cantrip). In one fell swoop it would change three cookie-cutter aspects of the Warlock: EB, Agonizing Blast, and Hex.

The tricky thing is balancing it. There are a bunch of questions/variables:
- Does it require a save instead of an attack roll?
- How long does it last (fixed number of rounds, until save is made, Charisma-mod number of rounds, etc.)
- Instead of a fixed duration, what if it last one round but got refreshed by another hit? If you miss or the target succeeds at its saving throw it ends?
- Does the dot stack with itself? I.e., if you attack the same target 3 turns in a row, on the 4th turn does it take 3x recurring damage?
- If it requires Concentration, should the Warlock be able to maintain it on several targets?
- What about Agonizing Blast? I would be tempted to say it would either not work, or at most only affect the initial damage. Repelling Blast wouldn't work at all.

So, for example, let's say it does 1d4 and then an additional 1d4 per round up to a minute. It would take 5 rounds to pass EB in cumulative damage, and 7 rounds to pass EB + AB in cumulative damage (assuming 16 Cha). But by 10 rounds it would have done as much damage as both EB and EB + AB combined.

Another option: 1d6 base damage, but it ends after one round unless the target is hit again (and still requires concentration). Ostensibly this catches EB much more quickly, but on a miss all is lost.

On the Invocation conundrum, I was thinking of two changes:
- Agonizing Blast would instead let you maintain concentration on as many separate targets as your Cha modifier.
- Repelling Blast would instead reduce movement speed of the target by 10' per stack.

Is this too much for a cantrip? Should it instead be a new spell? (Which would have to be really good to be better than EB + AB + Hex).

Or is this all waaaay too complicated and I should abandon the effort?

 

[Yunru]

Well there's a few quick problems:
- DoT is just bad.
- EB is a core feature of the Warlock, allowing them to keep pace once they've used their limited spells/rest.
- Concentration is better spent elsewhere.
- Nothing nowadays removes options. So either you buck that trend, or they can just pick up AEB anyway.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Oh, for chrissake. I clicked "Leave this Page" to avoid a double post and ended up with no post at all.

ENWORLD PLEASE FIX YOUR P.O.S. SOFTWARE!!!!!

Anyway, I was saying something like: Why is DoT objectively bad? Problematic, yes, but 'bad' seems subjective.

Also, the goal of the exercise was to find an alternate way for Warlocks to "keep pace" in a more interesting way than spamming EAB/Hex. I pretty much loathe everything about EB and was looking for a more flavorful option.

But, yes, removing options is awkward, and that combined with the complexity probably means back to the drawing board.

 

[Morrus]

ENWORLD PLEASE FIX YOUR P.O.S. SOFTWARE!!!!!

My name isn't Enworld, I don't have much control over the vbulletin software, and learn some manners. We get enough post reports about you that you don't need to exacerbate it by being obnoxious to me too. You're in my house; be polite or go somewhere else. If you want to report a bug, find a civil way to do so.

 

[Guest 6801328]

We get enough post reports about you

On the day I was born, the nurses all gathered 'round...

 

[Yunru]

Long story short, DoTs are bad because either they do too much damage, or they're not worth it at all. If the DoT also disabled, that'd be a different story.
An example DoT attack does X damage per turn. An example standard attack does 2X damage. To equal the standard attack, you need two turns of DoTing. During that time the enemy gets to make moves, kill people, or die to the rest of the party.

They work in MMOs and the likes because they're real time: An enemy can die half way through making an attack. With turn based combat, such as DnD, if they live to their turn, they've got no worries.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Long story short, DoTs are bad because either they do too much damage, or they're not worth it at all. If the DoT also disabled, that'd be a different story.
An example DoT attack does X damage per turn. An example standard attack does 2X damage. To equal the standard attack, you need two turns of DoTing. During that time the enemy gets to make moves, kill people, or die to the rest of the party.

They work in MMOs and the likes because they're real time: An enemy can die half way through making an attack. With turn based combat, such as DnD, if they live to their turn, they've got no worries.

I'm not sure I agree* that challenging design & play == "bad". Lots of non-damaging Concentration spells face the same calculus you make: is it better to spend a round putting a debuff on the enemy, or use the round doing some damage? Those are the tough decisions that make the game interesting, where optimization depends on knowing the unknowable: the result of future dice rolls.

*translation: "I disagree"