Warlock Patron: the Sisters (Witch)

[steeldragons]

Seems to me to Portent dice is the essential precedent here...and not a dissimilar ability, though your Witch's Fate twisting is more directly intentional...

You're also using the d20 to effect d20 rolls...I, personally, think the roll to match another's roll in order to work is a bit fiddly and makes it altogether less useful/under-powered as a class feature...even with adv./dis., you're making a fundamental and unique ability of the Witch a 10% chance for success?

Be that as it may, I see no problem (O- or U- P) with using the Diviner precedent whole hog. Make the Scarlet Witch power, verbatim, "twice per long rest" thing. I would also make it automatic. Unlike the Diviner power, you [the Witch] can decide when you're going to use this power, roll your d20 and make the person replace their roll (for an attack, save, whatever) with yours. OR, if that seems like it could also be un-useful -you go to hex an enemy and roll/give them a nat 20 instead! Oops!- you could say the witch declares a ROUND in which they will be Twisting Fate.

It takes their action for the round. They roll their d20 for that round, and then can decide where their roll replaces another as the round progresses. So low rolls they can just assign to the enemies, high rolls to their friends (NEVER to themselves!). While sometimes a change they want to make will be apparent (cursing an obviously superior foe with a low roll), undoubtedly, other times, yes, they will have to wait until the round (everyone else) is completed and then tell the DM where they want to intercede.

Just a thought. I think the idea of "matching" a roll is certainly a unique mechanic, but is it so unique that it makes the power nearly unusable? What good is a witch that can only accurately curse/hex/twist fate people 5 or 10% of the time?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Just a thought. I think the idea of "matching" a roll is certainly a unique mechanic, but is it so unique that it makes the power nearly unusable? What good is a witch that can only accurately curse/hex/twist fate people 5 or 10% of the time?

Well, it's utility is really directly proportional to how much action happens between long rests. Imagine a large-ish combat: 5 rounds of combat with 6 PCs versus 10 monsters, if we assume each participant gets 1 roll per turn, with the monsters surviving an average of 3 rounds...that's 60 rolls, so we would expect Twist Fate to proc three times. (More if anybody is getting multiple attacks, or if a spell requires multiple saving throws.) Half of those will be ignored because the Warlock won't want to change the result.

On first pass I had trouble understanding your proposal...I'll study some more before commenting.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[steeldragons]

Your math seems incorrect (at least in my head). You are presuming with 60 rolls your power would be effective 3 times - in 3 our of 60 rolls your Witch is going to MATCH one of those 60 rolls...that is flawed.

There can be no assumption that in 60 rolls, every number of the 1-20 will be rolled 3 times. Times those 60 by the 1-20 possibilities from the Witch's roll...you're not/ I don't see how you would be getting 3 expected accurate/activated uses of this power.

But I'm really not a "math guy," but on sight, that just doesn't look/sound right. Some provision should be made to have the power be reliable...a few times a day...whether there's a lot of fighting/rolls or not. The Witch can Twist Fate...this many times...Period. Have it advance as they gain levels? Sure! But make it something that's useful for the player (at least reliably consistent) and not a crap shoot every time it's [attempted to be] used.

 

[steeldragons]

I get that 3 is 5% of 60, but/so you are presuming that a Witch PC is attempting to Twist Fate on EVERY roll in EVERY round of combat? That's not going to happen. If they did/do, you can say (by the "law of averages" or some such probability gobblety goop, I suppose) they would have 3 successes...is that what you expect/want your Witch PCs/players doing?

DM: "Jody, as if I need to ask...you're up."
Jody playing Urcinda the Witch: "I TWIST FATE!" [every time a d20 gets rolled]
DM: "Ovvvv course you do...42nd time's the charm, eh?"

Doesn't sound like a particularly fun class to run or play.

 

[steeldragons]

Another alternative that occurred to me, but is significantly more "in the DM's hands" (some folks like that some don't) is that you make it...kind of a real Scarlet Witch [Marvel, tm] probability manipulation kind of power.

The Twist Fate roll is always successful, but you [the player/Witch] never really know what's going to happen...

The Witch declares "I Twist Fate!" and tell the DM what they would LIKE to happen. This can include "shutting down"/incapacitating/making prone/etc... an enemy, but can not cause direct HP damage and may only be directed at a single creature or 10' x 10' area.

If the witch rolls HIGHER than the d20 roll they are attempting to influence, something great -generated by the DM- happens. MORE than what the player wanted to happen. Your ally's strike that you Twisted to assure a successful hit, becomes a nat 20 or severs an arm or something (you twisted fate on the attack roll, not causing damage Or a successfully twisted [positive] skill check is automatically applied to everyone in the party. Something like that. DM's choice/creativity.

If you roll LOWER than the d20 they are attempting to influence, something not so good happens. Not only is the intended outcome unsuccessful, but effects against the Witch or their allies may ensue. A mildly botched "Twist" might cause the paladin to trip over himself and end his turn on the ground...a severely botched "twist" might result in a cave-in or all of the party dropping their weapons at once. Again, DM's choice/creativity.

IF you MATCH the d20 roll exactly, the Player of the Witch gets exactly what they wanted to occur to happen.

A lot more work for the DM...not necessarily always successful for the player...Keeps things interesting and unpredictable, though...kinda a Witch's version of a Wild Surge table mechanic.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Your math seems incorrect (at least in my head). You are presuming with 60 rolls your power would be effective 3 times - in 3 our of 60 rolls your Witch is going to MATCH one of those 60 rolls...that is flawed.

There can be no assumption that in 60 rolls, every number of the 1-20 will be rolled 3 times. Times those 60 by the 1-20 possibilities from the Witch's roll...you're not/ I don't see how you would be getting 3 expected accurate/activated uses of this power.

But I'm really not a "math guy," but on sight, that just doesn't look/sound right. Some provision should be made to have the power be reliable...a few times a day...whether there's a lot of fighting/rolls or not. The Witch can Twist Fate...this many times...Period. Have it advance as they gain levels?

No, that math is correct. On average out of 60 rolls 3 of them will match any specific number. Of course, in practice it will rarely be that neat. But over N rolls about N/20 will match that magic number, getting closer and closer as N gets larger and larger.

Sure! But make it something that's useful for the player (at least reliably consistent) and not a crap shoot every time it's [attempted to be] used.

Ok, here's the thing: it is fairly reliable when it's used, at least as much so as Luck dice are. If somebody rolls a die and it hits your magic number, you have a chance to reverse that outcome by making them re-roll, although the odds of it working vary depending on the circumstances.

What's not reliably consistent is when you get to use it, but that's true for all reaction abilities. Mage Slayer, for example. You can't use it unless you are within 5' of somebody who casts a spell. So you try to make sure you stay close to casters, and wait for them to cast a spell. With Twist Fate you try to be within 30' of as many people as possible (allies if your Twist Fate number is low, enemies if your Twist Fate number is high), and then you wait for them to roll a specific number.

Yes, this ability is even less predictable, but that's just a matter of degree. Sentinel is harder to predict than Protection fighting style or Mage Slayer, for example, because you never know when an enemy will decide to ignore you and go after somebody else.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I get that 3 is 5% of 60, but/so you are presuming that a Witch PC is attempting to Twist Fate on EVERY roll in EVERY round of combat?

Hmm...seems to be a basic misunderstanding here. The Witch doesn't "attempt" to Twist Fate every round, it's passive: any round where somebody rolls the magic number gives her an opportunity to attempt to Twist Fate.

Again, like any other reaction. It would be like asking if the Mage Slayer is going to attempt to attack a caster with their reaction attack every single round. No. But the possibility is there.

That's not going to happen. If they did/do, you can say (by the "law of averages" or some such probability gobblety goop, I suppose) they would have 3 successes...is that what you expect/want your Witch PCs/players doing?

DM: "Jody, as if I need to ask...you're up."
Jody playing Urcinda the Witch: "I TWIST FATE!" [every time a d20 gets rolled]
DM: "Ovvvv course you do...42nd time's the charm, eh?"

Doesn't sound like a particularly fun class to run or play.

Yeah, big misunderstanding. It's more like:

(Witch has a Twist Fate number of 13)
DM: "Ok, the orc rolls a 17 on his attack."
Player A: I cast Hold Person
DM: "The orc rolls a 5 on his saving throw and is Held."
Player B: "I shoot two arrows at the Ogre...8 and 14"
DM: "Ok, now it's the Ogre's turn...he rolls a 13"
Witch: "Twist Fate! Re-roll"

Now, in a particularly long day with many combats or other die rolls (lots of exploration or social interactions) maybe this ends up too powerful. So perhaps you have to cap it at Charisma-bonus times/day.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And just one more comment (for now!) about what I was thinking when I made this up:

I'm seeing the Witch (well, Warlock) as being a novice at this whole "weaving the threads of fate" thing. She can't use it intentionally, whenever she wants. Rather, she occasionally sees a thread of fate dangling and opportunistically grabs it.

 

[steeldragons]

Yes. Total misunderstanding on my part. I was not at all getting the whole passive/reaction part of this. Was thinking of it more as an active power.

I see how you're expecting it to go now. Still not sure if it will occur with enough regularity to make it worthwhile. But i like the flavor you are going for.

How about if any of the number of their Twisted Fate roll comes up...so, using the roll of 13 example, above, if the roll is a 1, 3, or 13 it triggers?

and cap it at Cha. mod...or Proficiency Bonus so it will automatically scale with level...though I suppose with ASI Cha. mod. would or could (but doesn't have to) increase with level as well.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yes. Total misunderstanding on my part. I was not at all getting the whole passive/reaction part of this. Was thinking of it more as an active power.

I see how you're expecting it to go now. Still not sure if it will occur with enough regularity to make it worthwhile. But i like the flavor you are going for.

How about if any of the number of their Twisted Fate roll comes up...so, using the roll of 13 example, above, if the roll is a 1, 3, or 13 it triggers?

and cap it at Cha. mod...or Proficiency Bonus so it will automatically scale with level...though I suppose with ASI Cha. mod. would or could (but doesn't have to) increase with level as well.

The thing that's hard with this mechanic is that its power is directly proportional to the amount of dice rolling going on. I gave an example of a combat with 60 rolls, but that could easily be a lot more with multi-attack or aoe spells. And that's just one fight. Throw in a bit of luck, and this thing could easily proc 10+ times per long rest.

But thinking about your ideas and feedback I did have another (completely different) model:

Jinx
When a creature within 30' succeeds at an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to attempt to unravel a strand of fate, potentially leading to a different outcome. Make a contested Charisma check with a DC of the unmodified roll you are trying to change. If you succeed, the creature must re-roll. You may attempt this a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier, and you recover all uses with a long rest.​

This turns it back into an "intentional" ability, rather than an opportunistic one, which in a way I think is a missed opportunity to introduce something more novel, but maybe that makes it more palatable. It's nowhere near as effective as Portent, but you can use it more often.

A couple of things I do like about it:
- It's easier to alter lower rolls than high ones, which aligns with the notion of tweaking fate rather than re-writing it completely.
- I had a version that enabled this to potentially turn failures into successes as well, but I think it's more flavorful if it's exclusively "bad luck".

(I can't help imagining Samantha Stevens wiggling her nose with a sound effect of the tinkling of a little bell.)