Warlock question!

[Piratecat]

Okay, KaeYoss, Keoki -- please stop this argument before it gets started. Discuss the thread topic, but let's not let this slide down into personal attacks or "he said/she said."

On that same note, it's always good for everyone to make sure that they're understanding peoples' posts and the points they're trying to make. Saves a lot of time and confusion afterwards.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Read the book and find Hideous Blow, then get back to us.

Hideous Blow allows you to perform a melee attack and then add your EB damage to it.

Notice that it involves a melee attack, and not a melee touch attack.

Your original comparison was a of an Improved Feinting, Sneak Attacking Eldritch Blast to a Masterwork, Mighty Composite Longbow. Which you can't do, because IF requires melee combat.

You're right, but we're talking about an eldritch blast with sneak attack, for 7d6 damage, which only has to hit the opponent's touch AC.

Now, you're comparing an Improved Feinting, Sneak Attacking Hideous Blow to a Fighter with a Mighty, Masterwork Composite Longbow. This is incorrect.

The proper comparison is now a Fighter with a Masterwork, possibly Magical, Greatsword (or longsword and shield, or spiked chain, or whatever).


Section of post deleted by Piratecat.

 

[Darmanicus]

He's got a few tricks, but only a few. But what tricks!

I'd agree possibly but only when multiclassing. I think I'm gonna have meself a good read this weekend and see what I can come up with.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Okay, KaeYoss, Keoki -- please stop this argument before it gets started. Discuss the thread topic, but let's not let this slide down into personal attacks or "he said/she said."

On that same note, it's always good for everyone to make sure that they're understanding peoples' posts and the points they're trying to make. Saves a lot of time and confusion afterwards.

I have stopped that argument.

I might add that I did read and understand the posts. So if you aimed that last remark at me, I'd like you to read his posts again (especially about "easiest ways" and compare them to my answers. If it still seems then that I haven't read them properly, please tell me so and I apologize for that.

But he used the "You're putting words in my mouth" routine several times in this thread, so it gets old.

 

[Krinkle]

Forgive by ignorance, but if I rememember correctly Eldritch Blast is stopped by globes and anti-magic (subject to its effective caster level based on whatever invocations apply, once again IIRC). Also, is it subject to SR? If either or both of these are the case I'd say that affects that negate magic are much more common in my campaign than successful (as opposed to attempted) sunders and disarms of fighters. Also, with Quickdraw, Unarmed Strike, or a simple move action, disarming a fighter doesn't generally end up being worth the use of a standard action, or at least its arguable. OK, getting rid of the massive magical great sword is cool, but its not as devastating as when a fighter grapples a low strength magic using type.

 

[Piratecat]

Patryn, give it a rest. I have deleted part of your post. When I say I want the argument and the discussion around it to cease, I'm referring to everyone.

I have stopped that argument.
. . .
But he used the "You're putting words in my mouth" routine several times in this thread, so it gets old.

Okay, this should be obvious, but saying you're stopping an argument and then criticizing the person is not stopping the argument; it's taking a cheap shot when someone isn't allowed to defend themselves, whether intentional or not.

I do not expect to see any more posts in this thread referring to anything but the thread topic. If this is a problem for some reason, please email me.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, on to the topic at hand.

Keoki claims that an Improved Feinting Rogue / Warlock with Hideous Blow is a force to be reckoned with in melee combat.

I haven't delved too deeply into Complete Arcane, nor have I played a Warlock, but it seems to me that such a character would suffer the same drawbacks as an Improved Feinting pure Rogue in melee combat.*

Specifically, light armor restrictions, few hit points, and a dearth of combat feats and BAB would cause the character to do tons of damage when and if he or she could connect, but would be unable to match the staying power of more Fighter-oriented builds. In other words, we've got a magical paper tiger (perhaps made out of a scroll? ), but a paper tiger nonetheless.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: For the record, IMC, I'm currently playing an Improved Feinting Fighter / Rogue, and I'm still running into max hit point problems. This can be ameliorated somewhat by Combat Expertising for a portion of the AC my opponents are denied, but I still get really beaten up in just about any combat.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

So, on to the topic at hand.

Keoki claims that an Improved Feinting Rogue / Warlock with Hideous Blow is a force to be reckoned with in melee combat.

I haven't delved too deeply into Complete Arcane, nor have I played a Warlock, but it seems to me that such a character would suffer the same drawbacks as an Improved Feinting pure Rogue in melee combat.

Come to think of it: On one side, we have rogue 7/warlock 7. His improved feint hideous blow will deal 1d6 (rapier) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (eldritch blast). That's 9d6

On the other hand, we have rogue 14. His improved feint hideous blow will deal 1d6 (rapier) +7d6 (sneak attack). That's 8d6. If we'd have used rogue/assassin, we'd even have come to the same 9d6.

So unless I missed something, the damage is more or less the same. Only that the warlock has to concentrate for that eldritch blast, and it's subject to SR and the like.

So the pure damage output isn't that much greater.

Now, a gestalt rogue/warlock....

 

[kigmatzomat]

So unless I missed something, the damage is more or less the same. Only that the warlock has to concentrate for that eldritch blast, and it's subject to SR and the like.

So the pure damage output isn't that much greater.

And, as the rogue IMC has come to realize, damage subject to special resistances tends to be least effective when you need it most.

If Eldritch blast is subject to SR then most golems are immune (SR:infinity except against select spells), dragons, celestials and fiends ignore it 25-50% of the time (assuming appropriate CRs), and it is defeated in most cases by Minor Globe.

Hey, if it's been errated to be a 1st level spell then does that mean that Spell Immunity and Spell Turning can protect against it?

Warlock: "Hah, I eldritch blast you!"
BBEG: "Hmmm, guess my Ring of Spellturning will zap that back at you. It can do that another 8 times if you'd care to continue."
Warlock: "Ouch! Guess I'll blast your cleric companion!"
BBEG'sCC: "Ho-hum. I saw you blasting our minions so much that I made myself immune to it."
Warlock: "Well, crap!"

 

[Krafen]

I'm not sure whether Essence Invocations can be combined with Hideous Blow, but if they can that would be an interesting direction to go for the Rogue/Warlock.