D&D 5E Warlock Spells - PHB page 106 - slot level maxes at 5th; pg 210 lists spells to 9th level

[JackOfAllTirades]

Just for the sake of curiosity, let's consider something.

What would happen if the Warlock had Pact Magic slots progressing to 9th level, instead of this bogus Mystic Arcanum feature?

 

[pdegan2814]

Just for the sake of curiosity, let's consider something.

What would happen if the Warlock had Pact Magic slots progressing to 9th level, instead of this bogus Mystic Arcanum feature?

They would end up arguably more powerful than Wizards. "Full Casters" never get more than 2 slots each for Levels 6 and 7, and 1 each of Levels 8 and 9. Warlocks at those levels only have a total of 4 spell slots, but they're all at the caster's highest spell level, and recharge every Short Rest, not Long Rest. Imagine being able to cast Foresight on 4 characters at the beginning of the day, taking a Short Rest, and then casting Finger Of Death 4 times in the afternoon.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

They would end up arguably more powerful than Wizards. "Full Casters" never get more than 2 slots each for Levels 6 and 7, and 1 each of Levels 8 and 9. Warlocks at those levels only have a total of 4 spell slots, but they're all at the caster's highest spell level, and recharge every Short Rest, not Long Rest. Imagine being able to cast Foresight on 4 characters at the beginning of the day, taking a Short Rest, and then casting Finger Of Death 4 times in the afternoon.

Excellent observations.

So beyond a certain spell level (5th, apparently) Pact Magic would be overpowered, and by 9th it would be completely broken.

It's just too bad (IMHO) the 5th edition designers couldn't come up with a better alternative than the Mystic Arcanum class feature. I'm not satisfied with it and never will be; my BladeLock is going to 12th level (Gotta have that Lifedrinker Invocation!) then multiclassing out because he has exactly no reason to take another Warlock level after that, forever.

The higher levels of the Warlock class (if not the whole thing) could really use some work.

 

[pdegan2814]

Excellent observations.

So beyond a certain spell level (5th, apparently) Pact Magic would be overpowered, and by 9th it would be completely broken.

It's just too bad (IMHO) the 5th edition designers couldn't come up with a better alternative than the Mystic Arcanum class feature. I'm not satisfied with it and never will be; my BladeLock is going to 12th level (Gotta have that Lifedrinker Invocation!) then multiclassing out because he has exactly no reason to take another Warlock level after that, forever.

The higher levels of the Warlock class (if not the whole thing) could really use some work.

While it's true that the Mystic Arcanum abilities may be less useful for a Bladelock that focuses on dealing damage through combat, there are certainly benefits to those higher levels. One thing a Warlock is traditionally not strong against is hordes. For your 6th-level spell you can choose Mass Suggestion or Circle Of Death, both good at dealing with multiple creatures. Or you've got Truesight, cast it on yourself and see through invisibility, illusions and other effects that might hamper your attack rolls. The 7th-level spells certain aren't useless. Forcecage lets you isolate part of the enemy force so you don't get overwhelmed, or so you have time to escape. Plane Shift can be an escape for you, or a big ol' buh-bye for the monster. And of course, Finger Of Death. WAY more damage than you can do with your Pact Weapon. For the 8th-level spell, two that immediately strike me as useful are Dominate Monster(Making the bad guy switch sides? Always helpful) and of course Feeblemind, when there's a caster on the other side you just HAVE to nerf right away. And in the 9th-level options is one that's without a doubt useful for a Bladelock, or anyone really. Advantage on all your attack rolls, and disadvantage to all attack rolls against you, all day long? GIMME.

Now, you may very well decide that those 8 levels after getting Lifedrinker would be better spent in another class(My choices would likely either be Rogue for Cunning Action, Expertise, Sneak Attack, etc. or Sorcerer for more spells with the same casting stat, plus metamagic. If you're a Strength-based Bladelock, then taking Fighter levels could be useful too, you'll even get an extra ASI out of it). Just remember that by stopping at Warlock 12 you're also staying at 3 rechargeable Warlock spell slots per Rest instead of 4, 6 Invocations instead of 8, your 4 Mystic Arcana, and your Patron's 14th-level ability.

 

[CapnZapp]

Excellent observations.

So beyond a certain spell level (5th, apparently) Pact Magic would be overpowered, and by 9th it would be completely broken.

It's just too bad (IMHO) the 5th edition designers couldn't come up with a better alternative than the Mystic Arcanum class feature. I'm not satisfied with it and never will be; my BladeLock is going to 12th level (Gotta have that Lifedrinker Invocation!) then multiclassing out because he has exactly no reason to take another Warlock level after that, forever.

The higher levels of the Warlock class (if not the whole thing) could really use some work.

I believe the higher levels of the Warlock class work fine. Getting high level spells even if only one a day is more than many classes get.

But of course it's geared towards "spelly" Warlocks. If you play a bladelock and focus on melee, there's absolutely nothing wrong with selecting levels of Fighter or Rogue instead.

That's the game rules working - not the other way 'round

 

[Falling Icicle]

Excellent observations.

So beyond a certain spell level (5th, apparently) Pact Magic would be overpowered, and by 9th it would be completely broken.

It's just too bad (IMHO) the 5th edition designers couldn't come up with a better alternative than the Mystic Arcanum class feature. I'm not satisfied with it and never will be; my BladeLock is going to 12th level (Gotta have that Lifedrinker Invocation!) then multiclassing out because he has exactly no reason to take another Warlock level after that, forever.

The higher levels of the Warlock class (if not the whole thing) could really use some work.

What is wrong with high level warlocks? Warlocks have the exact same number of high level spells per day that other spellcasters do until 19th-20th level, and after that, other spellcasters only get 1 more 6th and 7th level spell per day than warlocks do. Warlocks are also getting more invocations during those levels, and the high level invocations are really nice.

Plus, foresight and true polymorph are amazing. If you multiclass out of warlock, you miss out on those incredibly powerful spells. It's true that warlocks have less flexibility with mystic arcanums than spellscasters do with 6th-9th level slots, but it isn't that big of a deal. It's almost always better to cast a 9th level spell than a lower level spell in a 9th level slot.

 

[Aldarc]

D&D is full of situations where one character or another isn't as effective as they are at other times.

There are, by my count, three creatures in the entire game that are immune to eldrtich blast: helmed horrors (which are immune to force damage), and Rakshasas and Tiamat (which are immune to all low level spells). I don't think warlocks have to worry about being ineffective very often.

[Edit] I almost forgot about the Tarrasque, which reflects eldritch blasts with its shell. So there are four creatures that are immune to it, two of which are CR 30.

Tiamat amounts to the final encounter of a multi-book adventure seems like something that should probably include possible warlock players, or attempt to provide options for all player classes, but perhaps that's just me.

 

[Mephista]

What is wrong with high level warlocks?

Generally? Inappropriate spells for concepts, inability to scale said spells making things like Conjure Fey less useful, Invocations start to drop off in appeal, and so on. Yes, True Polymorph and Foresight are good, but those are both level 9 spells. You don't hear as much excitement for the level 6-8 magic, which is a long time to go with magic that doesn't fit into a Chain or Blade'lock theme. You also can't take both level 9 spells, unlike every other caster in existance - you only get one choice, ever. If you like two level 6 spells and no level 7 spells, too bad. Past level 14, there's nothing directly thematic for your Patron, which is another issue. Fiend warlocks like being blasty/stabby, and there's no fiendish theme to the high level magic, which can be highly disappointing. You don't even really get more spell slots for the lower level spells unitl level 17! That's a long way to be rather static in terms of abilities that you find desirable.

This is a very real problem for a lot of people who want to like the warlock.

 

[MerricB]

Tiamat amounts to the final encounter of a multi-book adventure seems like something that should probably include possible warlock players, or attempt to provide options for all player classes, but perhaps that's just me.

It's a failure of the monster design, not the class, really. I'm not fond of any boss monster that negates a class.

Consider Kyuss from 3.5E's Age of Worms, who is immune to rogues.

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

Tiamat amounts to the final encounter of a multi-book adventure seems like something that should probably include possible warlock players, or attempt to provide options for all player classes, but perhaps that's just me.

This is the AP my group is working on now, and yes, I'd probably be a lot less concerned about the Warlock class if I wasn't worried that the final "boss fight" was going to completely nerf my character. If I was in some other campaign I'd probably pursue the Warlock class to its conclusion, based on the comments above, although I'd still be annoyed by the lack of flexibility in the Warlock's high level spells.

As things stand, I'm looking at going for Fey/BladeLock 12/Swashbuckler 3, because it fits my character's personality (he already fights that way, anyhow) and it'll give him some extra damage potential, good mobility, and a serious initiative boost. He's going to need all of that.