Warlocks, Book of Vile Darkness, and rulings.

[Nightfall]

Okay here's the deal, as many of you might know (or perhaps not), I'm a huge fan of Orcus.
I'm also very disinclinced to FR drow. (Not that GH drow endear me that much but still!) Now in the current 3.5 format Orcus is not considered a god. What does this have to do with price of Tea in China? I'll tell you!

I'm currently now in a 1st level FR game where eventually the DM revealed we will be in City of the Spider Queen. Of course this rose my ire a great deal, and thus I decided to go an untraditional route in a group that, while slightly eccentric (we have changling that enjoys confusing the hell of out people, a female halfling rogue that pretends to be a cleric of whatever deity she feels like, and a female gnome fighter that really isn't much of a fighter. Plus a paladin of Torm.) and go warlock. Now I could have, given we have a paladin, be a "good" warlock but honestly I want to put the fear of Orcus into the Underdark. (Hell I want to turn FR underdark into the new layer of Thantos!) Anyway so I go NE, so as not to completely upset the party balance AND still be somewhat in line with Orcus' CE philosophy.

My problem stems primarily for planning out how my character should grow. A tielfing that makes NO pretense to be anything human. (He plans to be a full demon or else a powerful lich if possible) I want to either extend the demonic side of my personality or at least go pure evil. I know Thrall of the Demon is one feat I'm considering (Note, I'm using BoVD as a reference, Champions of Ruins can say what they want, I still don't see why a NE follower of Orcus couldn't exist, even with this feat.) But what about Violate Spell-like ability?

As it does state I have spell-like abilities, how does that effect my invocations?

Also would Corrupt Spell-like abilities and/or Boost Spell-like ability still function for me?

Just REALLY want some clarifications before I bring this stuff to my DM.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

You don't foresee... a problem with this character concept?

-Hyp.

 

[Nightfall]

Not when I've promised only to kill drow, turn the Underdark into Orcus' personal play ground, and make sure he becomes a god, thus killing off all the Drow panethon and assure vengence against Kiarselenee. Believe me I consider working with a paladin a minor inconvience/annoyance at best. If he gets in my way, then I'll kill him. If he cause me crap, so be it. But honestly this is how I want to run it.

Anyway Hyp, I'd REALLY appreciate it if you answer my other questions.

 

[dedicated]

Complete Arcane
Invocations are also spell-like abilities

so yeah the feats would affect your invocations
spell like abilities don't affect your invocations
kill the paladin

 

[Nightfall]

Eh. I'll bid my time. No need to be that evil JUST yet.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not when I've promised only to kill drow, turn the Underdark into Orcus' personal play ground, and make sure he becomes a god, thus killing off all the Drow panethon and assure vengence against Kiarselenee. Believe me I consider working with a paladin a minor inconvience/annoyance at best. If he gets in my way, then I'll kill him.

It's not the inconvenience to you that's the problem; it's the fact that he is required by his code of conduct to flat-out refuse to work with you.

The fact that you're promising to kill drow isn't the issue. You're talking about being Eeee-evil, and making no pretence otherwise. He is not permitted to willingly associate with evil.

If you bring this character into a party that already includes a paladin, he will have to at the least lay down an ultimatum - "He goes, or I go". The class requires it.

As long as you understand that your decision means that either a/ a player with a pre-existing character will have to give that character up, or b/ you'll end up not playing this character anyway.

Anyway Hyp, I'd REALLY appreciate it if you answer my other questions.

I'm away from my BoVD and my CArc, so I can't help you there right now.

-Hyp.

 

[Nightfall]

Hyp,

Uhm I already RAN this character last friday. The DM didn't have a problem. The paladin still might kill me. So far if it comes down to it, I think he'll go before I do, as I'm probably more like the rest of the party, ambigiously amoral.

When you do get near BoVD, ComAr and also perhaps Champions of Ruin, I'd like your thoughts.

 

[Alzrius]

Hey Nightfall, your fellow Thrall of Orcus is here to help you out.

My problem stems primarily for planning out how my character should grow. A tielfing that makes NO pretense to be anything human. (He plans to be a full demon or else a powerful lich if possible) I want to either extend the demonic side of my personality or at least go pure evil.

It sounds like you've got the relevant materials and books, so here are some of my recommendations.

As a warlock, you won't get many feats. If you want to take the Thrall of Orcus PrC, you'll have to start planning from level 1. First, you'll want to take Evil Brand at 1st or 3rd level, and then Lichloved at (respectively) 3rd or 6th level. Of those three feat slots (1st, 3rd, and 6th), which ever one is remaining after you take those two will need to be filled with Thrall to Demon, then you'll have all the prerequisite feats down. Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) are class skills for you, so getting 2 ranks in those will be no problem. The last prerequisite is that you have to be able to cast a Necromancy spell, so a level of Sorcerer (which thematically makes more sense than Wizard) will round it out, although that will hurt your warlock invocations a bit. All of this will let you take your first level in the PrC by level 8 (your total ECL then will be 9).

As for the lich options, those are very difficult for a warlock, but not impossible. As is, the lich template can only be applied to Humanoids, so that's out since you're an Outsider. Two options are the lichfiend variant templates; one from Libris Mortis, and one from the sidebar on page 57 of Dungeon #116.

The former requires that you have five at-will spell-like abilities (no problem there as a warock), the Craft Wondrous Item feat, and a caster level of 11 or higher. The feat requirement does hurt, although it can be used with the warlock's Imbue Item ability (note that if you follow the above outline, and take all 10 levels of the PrC immediately, you won't get that ability until you're total character level is 23, ECL 24). Beyond that (and having DR 15/good and bludgeoning) you'll be like a standard lich.

The latter version requires that you have the Evil Brand feat, and are "caster level 11 in a spellcasting class". This hurts, since technically warlock isn't a spellcasting class, which the caster levels must be in. Assuming you take more Sorcerer levels (after taking all 10 levels of the PrC, as outlined above), you'd be total character level 27, ECL 28, before you qualified. Ouch! If your DM is willing to bend the rules and allow Warlock to fulfill that requirement, and you always choose the spellcasting level options at 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th levels in Thrall of Orcus, then you'll qualify when you take another Sorcerer level after that (which would put you at total character level 18, ECL 19). Note that this type of lichfiend has no phylactery...instead, your soul is bound to a demon or devil lord (in this case, I'd imagine you'd pick Orcus). It can destroy you as a free action, but if your body is destroyed, your soul goes to your patron, and he can either destroy you, or recreate your body for you. Essentially, you become bound to your patron forever.

If you wanted to be a "powerful demon", you might want the Half-Fiend template (you wouldn't qualify, and probably wouldn't want, the Fiendish template). You could either take it immediately and pay the +4 level adjustment over time, or you can take it as a monster class, as described here (bottom of the page). I strongly recommend the latter, since not only does it not suddenly give you a jump on the rest of the PCs, but it also takes into account tieflings having a +1 LA, and that they're becoming half-fiends, making it into a three-level class (essentially getting the power of five effective-levels' worth in only four levels, though I think they're right to say that if you're a tiefling half-fiend, the +1 LA from being a tiefling is rather worthless; hence why they fold it into the template's LA).

what about Violate Spell-like ability?

As it does state I have spell-like abilities, how does that effect my invocations?

Also would Corrupt Spell-like abilities and/or Boost Spell-like ability still function for me?

All of the "metamagic spell-like ability" feats would function for you, be it Boost Spell-like Ability, Violate Spell-like Ability, Corrupt Spell-like Ability, etc. In the strictest reading, every invocation would be a different spell-like ability, so feats that applies to every spell-like ability a set number of times (such as Corrupt Spell-like Ability or Violate Spell-like Ability), could work on every one of your invocations a few times. Note that your DM might want to restrict that to all of your invocations (e.g. Corrupt Spell-like Ability three times total for your invocations) for purposes of game balance. I'd recommend Corrupt Spell-like Ability over Violate Spell-like Ability, because not only does the former work thrice per spell-like ability (as opposed to the latter's twice), but reading the descriptions, the former's vile damage gets through if a creature is immune to the related energy damage, whereas the latter's doesn't (e.g. a Corrupted fire invocation, used against a fire-immune creature, would still have the vile damage get through, whereas a Violated fire invocation would fail against a fire-immune creature).

Just REALLY want some clarifications before I bring this stuff to my DM.

It sounds like you already started playing this character, but I hope this helps! Good luck!

 

[Nightfall]

Al,

This helps out a lot. I think I'll try the transition classes, IF my DM approves it.

*Wonders how Alzirus got to be a Thrall of Orcus since you are Demon Prince too...*

I had thought to do Thrall...but dismissed off hand because it's kind of weak in terms of a) no increase in spellcasting and b) few feats.

BUT since I am a warlock, this won't kill me in terms of my abilities. So I might take it after all.

Also helpful in deciding that I don't need any of those "racial" feats from Races of Faerun.

So overall Al, I'll think about lich but might pass in favor of Thrall (might have to adjust a few things since I'm starting out as a 1st level Tiefling,) but we'll see.

You've been most helpful indeed.

[Editor's note: I have started but I do want to consider all my ramifications for future levels.]

 

[Alzrius]

*Wonders how Alzirus got to be a Thrall of Orcus since you are Demon Prince too...*

I'm that desperate for recognition. When's the last time you say my name in a D&D product?

Glad I could help though!