Warlock's Curse stacking THP & maybe BRV also

[turk128]

Someone pointed me to a very interesting ruling on the Warlock's Curse...

Original question...

"The PHB states that temporary HP does not stack unless from a single source, or unless stated otherwise. Dark One's Blessing, a Warlock's Curse ability states:

"You have the Dark One's Blessing pact boon. You instantly gain vitality from a cursed enemy when that enemy falls. When an enemy under your Warlock's Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you immediately gain temporary hit points equal to your level."

In this case the wording of this power is not completely specific, and open to interpretation on whether or not a Warlock only gains temporary HP every time an enemy reaches 0 HP (even if more then one enemy under the Warlock's Curse is slain at the same time), or if the Warlock gains HP equal to his level for every enemy who reaches 0 HP when placed under a Warlock's Curse.

Since the Warlock's Curse for an Infernal Warlock is the Dark One's Blessing, a single source for the ability, it seems to lean towards the latter explanation: Any enemy slain under the Warlock's Curse gives the Warlock HP equal to his level, including multiple opponents slain at the same time or at later times, stacking continuously in this manner.

I am curious as too the decisive nature of the Dark One's Blessing, since my group has been opposed by another group whom state that the Dark One's Blessing would only offer temporary HP equal to the Warlock's Level for a single enemy, each time activated overriding the previous temporary HP instead of stacking. Any clarification would be wonderful."

Answer...

The temporary HP in the blessing stacks if all the sources are killed at the same time. If they are killed at separate times, the temporary hit points do not stack. Stacking from the same source only counts the source, at that same time. Separate instances that trigger the ability don't all stack together.

So in essence, you're both partly right.

So basically there is an instance where non-Vigor power THP can stack.



Which brings up the other THP hoarder; Battleragers. What if a BR activates multiple attacks of opportunities at the same time? Since the AoO are interrupts, would they resolve at the same time bringing up a situation similar to the Warlock's Curse above?

 

[Oompa]

I learned that no temp hp stacks, just take the highest value..

Farmer A and Farmer B are both killed with the same power, but their temp hp dont stack, cause farmer A and farmer B are both different sources..

 

[turk128]

Except for the above answer by Wizard's Customer Support saying it does stack in that instance. ("The temporary HP in the blessing stacks...")

 

[Jack99]

CS is known for not always being correct (that's the most polite version). Allowing THP to stack if they are giving at the same time is a really bad idea.

 

[Sunglare]

I thought Dark One's Blessing was very clear and only leads to one interpetation. When an enemy under a warlocks curse is slain the warlock gets Temp HP.

Now look under the Temp HP rules and it says they don't stack.

Of course CS anwsers are going to be screwy when people give them long winded questions and the question is "explained" in the questioners favor.
Why not simply ask the customers service; "If multiple creatures under the warlocks curse are slain at the same time to the Temp HP stack?"
Also you can clearly see that the customer service rep is considering the power that killed the creatures all at once as "the source." Which is incorrect, the sourse of the temp HP is the creature slain under a curse which does not happen at the same time. You determine a creatures hit and damage one at a time

 

[GorTeX]

Note that the PHB states that THP from different sources do not stack...but it says NOTHING at all about THP from the same source (the original question mistated the PHB in this regard).

 

[WalterKovacs]

Note that the PHB states that THP from different sources do not stack...but it says NOTHING at all about THP from the same source (the original question mistated the PHB in this regard).

However, the PHB says that ANYTHING from the same source does not stack, such as the feat bonus to initiative from quick draw and improved initiative not stacking. THP also has the added effect of not stacking from different sources either, it wasn't necessary to include the general rule of not stacking from the same source. [For example, the star pact's boon has to explicitly state it does stack until used, as under the existing rules, it wouldn't stack with itself.]

 

[turk128]

Yes, I understand that CS is not 100% but have yet to find an alternative to this. Even the CS says there's some grey in his answer ("So in essence, you're both partly right.")

Also you can clearly see that the customer service rep is considering the power that killed the creatures all at once as "the source." Which is incorrect, the sourse of the temp HP is the creature slain under a curse which does not happen at the same time. You determine a creatures hit and damage one at a time

From the wording, the CS seems to have considered it multiple instances triggering the boon at the same time.

This particularly comes down to the Rod of Corruption & Rod of Reaving combo vs minions. Basically, kill a cursed creature and destroy all minions within 5 squares of it. There's no hit determination since it's auto, ditto damage. Everything happens with that one action at the same time.

 

[Plane Sailing]

To be honest, I've found that the simplest solution is to say "Temp hp never stack, ever". This is simple to remember, covers 99% of all cases perfectly and can't be abused.

Cheers

 

[Solodan]

This is pretty simple.

You have 10 guys cursed, they all die in a big SIMULTANEOUS explosion (say, a wizzie fireball). How many THP do you get?

Since it all happens AT THE SAME TIME, i have no problem with it adding together as one effect, which it seems is the customer service response.

Anything else, does not stack. Ever. This isn't even really stacking, though we can get technical and split hairs. I consider a stacking meaing two seperate occurances adding together. One Area Burst to me is a single occurance, even if there are multiple dice rolls involved. Attacks with secondary attacks, in my opinion, don't add up either. But that is also getting technical.

EDIT: On second thought, that is too complicated, too confusing and might even be too powerful. I'd just go with nothing stacks ever for simplicity. And let the battlerager figure out their situation.

 

[Xris Robin]

I'd say it stacks. It almost has too, because the Starlocks To-Hit bonus Boon certainly does stack.

 

[CapnZapp]

Don't let temp hp stack, ever.

It's far too easy to kill of a dozen minions and thus get abusive amounts of temp hp if you do.

It's a really bad idea to listen to CS replies too, by the way. You are sure to get a much higher quality of replies posting here at ENWorld for example.

 

[jorrit]

Don't let temp hp stack, ever.

It's far too easy to kill of a dozen minions and thus get abusive amounts of temp hp if you do.

Well the Battlerager fighter gets temp HP equal to the constitution modifier which is added on top of the temp HP that he already has; everytime he hits something with a power that has the 'invigorating' keyword. However, this is limited to 'once per turn' so you can't really get lots of temporary HP in a single round that way.

My son uses it for his fighter and while it is nice it is certainly not unbalancing.

Greetings,

 

[CapnZapp]

I'd say it stacks. It almost has too, because the Starlocks To-Hit bonus Boon certainly does stack.

No.

The Star Warlock boon is something completely different from temp hp.

It's is designed to stack, while temp hp isn't. Simple.

The difference is that temp hp is a general feature which you can get from various sources as well as the fact it's designed and balanced by the assumption you only get a small helping at a time.

The Star Boon is a very special bonus which doesn't have to worry about you getting it from somewhere else, plus it's already from the beginning clearly designed with larger bonuses in mind. Evidently, even if you get a whopping +20 that will only mean you're about to auto-hit with a Daily once.

This is far less unbalancing than you getting heaps of temporary hit points, something that effectively make you invulnerable to damage for a short period of time.

So you're comparing apples and oranges. There is no sound reason why one Boon should be the same as any random other Boon.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd say it stacks. It almost has too, because the Starlocks To-Hit bonus Boon certainly does stack.

If you thought that was the case, presumably you would also allow feylocks to teleport further if several of their cursed guys got topped at once?

Personally I don't think that it necessarily follows at all - since the temp hp you do get will stick around to the end of the encounter (unlike the starlock who has to use this to-hit bonus before the end of his next turn or lose it)

 

[Jhaelen]

Don't let temp hp stack, ever.

This. So far every instance where it appeared that there was temp hp stacking involved was clarified and/or errataed.

 

[Xris Robin]

If you thought that was the case, presumably you would also allow feylocks to teleport further if several of their cursed guys got topped at once?

Personally I don't think that it necessarily follows at all - since the temp hp you do get will stick around to the end of the encounter (unlike the starlock who has to use this to-hit bonus before the end of his next turn or lose it)

Yes, especially since not only the Starlock, but the Darklock explicitly stacks. And the Darklock's Darkspiral Aura sticks around until end of encounter or he uses it too.

Also, while I said 'stack', I don't really consider this a case of Temp HP stacking. More like the pact boon being "gain X Temp HP per cursed enemy killed". Or that enemies die all at the same time. When you have Temp HPs, you can't gain more unless it's a higher amount, and then it replaces. But I consider gaining it like this to be gaining it all at once, not one at a time.

If 3 enemies die, instead of getting say, 5 Temp HPs three times, I simply get 15 once. Actually at level 1, I'd be getting 3 Temp HP instead of 1, so I hardly consider it broken, at least early on. If I have the feat, that's be 12 Temp HP, which is only 2 more than our Battlerager Dwarf usually has. I dunno, I guess I just don't see you gaining enough to make a difference. I suppose it might be broken at higher levels, but I haven't played at them enough to know. How often do you kill enemies in huge groups usually?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, at high levels it could be a bit broken. Imagine a 20th level warlock. It isn't hard at all to imagine 3 or 4 cursed enemies going down to an AoE at that level in one shot, resulting in 80 TempHP? That is a LOT of temp hit points... Of course at 20th level the hit points run like water too, though usually it is the MONSTERS that are taking mega damage. Just one of those things, you could go either way and I doubt it will break things TOO much. Though IMHO the more conservative interpretation feels like its more likely to work smoothly in all cases.

 

[Xris Robin]

I suppose I'm really just bothered by how weak the Pact Boon is at heroic levels then. 1 Temp HP at level 1? It does start ramping up in usefulness as you level, but my highest character (a Ranger) is only level 6, so I suppose I don't know how higher level play works very well.

 

[shadowoflameth]

either way, the THP from your curse is limited by your level. Even if you kill dozens of cursed foes at once, you can't get more than the ability is capable of bestowing.

Likewise, if you have more than one ability giving you THP, they will not stack unless they both says that they can. Even if they do, these abilities as written, always (hopefully) have a limit of their own that will prevent the abuse from being too maddening.