D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

[Necropolitan]

But it can not enable them.

If the DM wants to set up the paladin in the Kobayashi Maru to strip him of his paladinhood, he can do so. However, the 5e DM has to create the mechanism to strip him of his status and state that exists as a house rule at session zero. In AD&D, the DM need only say "hey man, the rules say X is an evil act, and I'm just playing by the rules." In both situations, the DM is being a jerk. In the former, the DM is saying "I am going to sit in judgement of your paladin'* actions" while the latter is saying "hey, the rules say you are losing your power, I'm just being an arbiter of what the rules say."

You want to be a micromanaging DM who keeps your PCs on a short leash? Own it. Put it in your house rules how whipped your clerics, warlocks and paladins (and possibly others) are going to be. Don't hide behind "but the rulebook says..." When you put those characters in "role playing situations" that screw over their class features...

Nope.

The DM's the one doing all the work, if a player's so entitled that the possibility of their character facing consequences for their actions in the rules is a dealbreaker then there's no loss in them not being part of the campaign.

And if a DM's a jerk then don't play in their campaign.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Look at the Stanford Prison Experiment

That’s pretty much the opposite of what actually happened. The Stanford Prison Experiment showed that pretty much everyone becomes a jerk when given power over others.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

the 5.5e guidance is bizarre. The PC makes the pact with the patron at 1st level without knowing who it is. Then at 3rd level they find out.

"LEVEL 1: PACT MAGIC
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows-its identity unclear-but its boon to you is concrete."

Apparently all warlocks have a wisdom and intelligence of 3.

As for the rest, there's no further guidance at all. It doesn't say the player does it. It doesn't say the DM does it. It doesn't say to collaborate.

As I said, class fluff is suggestions, not rules, which is why so much of it is contradictory, and there are a great many different ways to fluff a warlock.

But the 2024 rules also say (slightly paraphrased) "If you are not a new player you should start at level 3".

 

[Maxperson]

As I said, class fluff is suggestions, not rules, which is why so much of it is contradictory, and there are a great many different ways to fluff a warlock.

But the 2024 rules also say (slightly paraphrased) "If you are not a new player you should start at level 3".

All that does is jump him to the level where he finds out who he made the deal with at 1st level.

I don't understand what WotC was thinking when it wrote that all warlocks are initially ignorant of who they made their pact with. Now I of course would not run it that way unless the player wanted a pact with the unknown. generally the warlock would know at 1st level who he was dealing with.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

All that does is jump him to the level where he finds out who he made the deal with at 1st level.

1st level is a game construct, not part of the world. There is no reason to suppose a 3rd level character was ever 1st.

I don't understand what WotC was thinking when it wrote that all warlocks

It doesn't. Because it's a suggestion, and one specifically aimed at new players who have no experience in writing character backstories.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That’s pretty much the opposite of what actually happened. The Stanford Prison Experiment showed that pretty much everyone becomes a jerk when given power over others.

There was both power and a push in the setup of Stanford due to its setup and the closest thing we have to reproducing it (due to ethical concerns), the 2002 BBC Prison Experiment worked to avoid the push and produced very different results.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There was both power and a push in the setup of Stanford due to its setup and the closest thing we have to reproducing it (due to ethical concerns), the 2002 BBC Prison Experiment worked to avoid the push and produced very different results.

And D&D has had push factors since 1st edition (since the original creator was a classic jerk DM). A lot of the changes in 5e have been aimed at removing push factors.