D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

[Paul Farquhar]

Better to look at what other people have done, and examples from myth and literature than rely on the PHB text.

It has been mentioned before that 5e is a superhero game in a fantasy skin. In a superhero rpg it’s up to the player to create an origin story that explains how their character got their powers, and you can do 5e the same way. Of course there is a big difference between a good origin story with plenty of meaty plot hooks, and “my character was bitten by a radioactive celestial”, but them’s the breaks. Not everyone is equally experienced or creative.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Better to look at what other people have done, and examples from myth and literature than rely on the PHB text.

It has been mentioned before that 5e is a superhero game in a fantasy skin. In a superhero rpg it’s up to the player to create an origin story that explains how their character got their powers, and you can do 5e the same way. Of course there is a big difference between a good origin story with plenty of meaty plot hooks, and “my character was bitten by a radioactive celestial”, but them’s the breaks. Not everyone is equally experienced or creative.

And not every piece of guidance is equally good. One of my common critiques of D&D in general and both sandbox and adventure path play in specific is that the characters might as well have been Isikai'd in, all from different universes because, with the DM having absolute control of the setting and it being written before the characters ever show up it doesn't matter how skilled the writing, the plot hooks are fundamentally disconnected from anything pre-written.

The only thing worse is having the players terrified to put one toe out of line as the DM will almost arbitrarily yoink all their superheroic powers permanently for "a single evil act" and therefore the hook should not be engaged with.

Meanwhile if you want to see it done well look at e.g. Daggerheart where the players literally draw where they come from on the map and have connections questions so they have a shared background that itself creates RP hooks

 

[Remathilis]

That’s pretty much the opposite of what actually happened. The Stanford Prison Experiment showed that pretty much everyone becomes a jerk when given power over others.

Which is a good reason to limit viking hat GMs IMHO...

 

[Necropolitan]

Which is a good reason to limit viking hat GMs IMHO...

No, because it's an obviously bad idea to write the rules assuming that jerk DMs are the norm.

Also the Standford Prison Experiment wasn't a valid experiment. The guards were TOLD what to do, their behavior wasn't the natural end result of being given power over others.

Debunking the Stanford Prison Experiment - PubMed

The Stanford Prison Experiment (SPE) is one of psychology's most famous studies. It has been criticized on many grounds, and yet a majority of textbook authors have ignored these criticisms in their discussions of the SPE, thereby misleading both students and the general public about the study's...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A player not wanting to interact with the basic premise of their class should be a carefully-managed exception, not the norm.

 

[Bae'zel]

I'm getting a weird feeling of déja vu here. Like this thread combines a few recently epic debate threads into one.

Is this another thread where we get boiled down to 2 extreme sides? "worldbuilding belongs to the players" vs. "worldbuilding belongs to the dm" and bad faith arguments all the way.

As with anything, talking with players before the campaign begins to work something out about DM and player expectations. If there's incompatibility between playstyles, then politely step away from the gaming contract with that individual.