D&D General Warlocks' patrons vs. Paladin Oaths and Cleric Deities

[Distracted DM]

I've had trouble with warlocks all through 5e, and I could use some insights from other folk. Maybe I just need the discussion.

I've been playing and running since AD&D, so I have solid ideas of what the strictures of a cleric and paladin should be, where their powers come from, and the responsibilities of those classes. In some ways, they're still baked into the class, even if 5e has handwaved a lot of it away. But Warlocks, as they are now, are a 5e construct.

A paladin's power is drawn from their oath, their faith (in that oath or deity). I still ask paladins players to pick a deity or something in that vein.
Clerics get their powers from their deity, their faith, etc.
Warlocks, according to their 5e14 class description, get their power in exchange for performing services for their patron.

Here's one hurdle: the warlock actually gets their power by leveling up- whether it's experience points or milestone leveling, the warlock doesn't need to be doing anything for their patron to "gain power." You could say similar things about clerics and paladins, but a paladin just has to keep to their oath- a cleric just needs to adhere to their faith. If they violate those, then there's trouble; class changes, power-stripping, the kind of stuff that doesn't actually happen at most tables but the mechanical suggestion is there, both consequence and requirement.

A warlock is ... a lot less "firm" in what the heck it needs to be doing, if anything. And if you do start to require things of the warlock, that seems to put a lot more focus on that one player. They need to acquire the Jewel of Kabaz if they want to level up. If they don't ... do they level up anyway? Whether you're doing experience or milestone leveling via quests/story arcs, is the warlock leveling at a different pace than others? Probably not. So does their patron matter, outside of mechanics?

I guess there's just so little provided to work with as a DM, and so much more of an expectation- the warlock-patron relationship seems closer/more "present" than a paladin oath/cleric faith because supposedly warlocks need to be periodically doing direct tasks for their patron if they want more class features.
I've been trying to nail down my issues, and to figure out solutions- I guess the other thing is, it seems like almost anything can be a warlock patron. You don't need a deity- lowish-CR creatures can be warlock patrons.. So it's hard to make a list of strictures n' such for warlocks.. since their patrons are basically "whatever."
I don't know, I'm still trying to figure this one out. Maybe it's just about GMing style, but again I've never had a problem with paladins n' clerics.

Has anyone else had this problem with warlocks?

 

[Maxperson]

I've had trouble with warlocks all through 5e, and I could use some insights from other folk. Maybe I just need the discussion.

I've been playing and running since AD&D, so I have solid ideas of what the strictures of a cleric and paladin should be, where their powers come from, and the responsibilities of those classes. In some ways, they're still baked into the class, even if 5e has handwaved a lot of it away. But Warlocks, as they are now, are a 5e construct.

A paladin's power is drawn from their oath, their faith (in that oath or deity). I still ask paladins players to pick a deity or something in that vein.
Clerics get their powers from their deity, their faith, etc.
Warlocks, according to their 5e14 class description, get their power in exchange for performing services for their patron.

Here's one hurdle: the warlock actually gets their power by leveling up- whether it's experience points or milestone leveling, the warlock doesn't need to be doing anything for their patron to "gain power." You could say similar things about clerics and paladins, but a paladin just has to keep to their oath- a cleric just needs to adhere to their faith. If they violate those, then there's trouble; class changes, power-stripping, the kind of stuff that doesn't actually happen at most tables but the mechanical suggestion is there, both consequence and requirement.

A warlock is ... a lot less "firm" in what the heck it needs to be doing, if anything. And if you do start to require things of the warlock, that seems to put a lot more focus on that one player. They need to acquire the Jewel of Kabaz if they want to level up. If they don't ... do they level up anyway? Whether you're doing experience or milestone leveling via quests/story arcs, is the warlock leveling at a different pace than others? Probably not. So does their patron matter, outside of mechanics?

I guess there's just so little provided to work with as a DM, and so much more of an expectation- the warlock-patron relationship seems closer/more "present" than a paladin oath/cleric faith because supposedly warlocks need to be periodically doing direct tasks for their patron if they want more class features.
I've been trying to nail down my issues, and to figure out solutions- I guess the other thing is, it seems like almost anything can be a warlock patron. You don't need a deity- lowish-CR creatures can be warlock patrons.. So it's hard to make a list of strictures n' such for warlocks.. since their patrons are basically "whatever."
I don't know, I'm still trying to figure this one out. Maybe it's just about GMing style, but again I've never had a problem with paladins n' clerics.

Has anyone else had this problem with warlocks?

The best way is to write up the pact at level 1. The patron(you) and the PC(player) negotiate out a contract for the power. Then the warlock needs to uphold it every bit as much as the paladin oath. When you negotiate it, do so with an eye for the flavor of the patron. A fey is going to bargain for different things than a demon.

 

[Steampunkette]

Max has a really solid idea, there. Another way to do it?

Flesh out the Patron.

Sit down with your Player/DM and figure out who your patron is, what they want, how you'll get it for them. Decide how the relationship is between Warlock and Patron.

Is the relationship purely transactional with no greater feeling? Does the Warlock -despise- their patron, but serve because the power is needed to do good? Does the Patron see themself as a pseudo-parental figure for the warlock? Or are they just fattening up a future snackrifice?

After all, if the Warlock hits 20th level and the Patron calls in their marker for the warlock's soul: They likely also get all the warlock's stuff. And a level 20 D&D characters has LOTS of resources and powerful magic items that can be used to spread the Patron's influence and help them achieve their goals.

The patrons are loosely themed so that you can flesh out what a specific patron is like, rather than all Fiend Warlocks serving Asmodeus.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I've had trouble with warlocks all through 5e, and I could use some insights from other folk. Maybe I just need the discussion.

I've been playing and running since AD&D, so I have solid ideas of what the strictures of a cleric and paladin should be, where their powers come from, and the responsibilities of those classes. In some ways, they're still baked into the class, even if 5e has handwaved a lot of it away. But Warlocks, as they are now, are a 5e construct.

A paladin's power is drawn from their oath, their faith (in that oath or deity). I still ask paladins players to pick a deity or something in that vein.
Clerics get their powers from their deity, their faith, etc.
Warlocks, according to their 5e14 class description, get their power in exchange for performing services for their patron.

Here's one hurdle: the warlock actually gets their power by leveling up- whether it's experience points or milestone leveling, the warlock doesn't need to be doing anything for their patron to "gain power." You could say similar things about clerics and paladins, but a paladin just has to keep to their oath- a cleric just needs to adhere to their faith. If they violate those, then there's trouble; class changes, power-stripping, the kind of stuff that doesn't actually happen at most tables but the mechanical suggestion is there, both consequence and requirement.

A warlock is ... a lot less "firm" in what the heck it needs to be doing, if anything. And if you do start to require things of the warlock, that seems to put a lot more focus on that one player. They need to acquire the Jewel of Kabaz if they want to level up. If they don't ... do they level up anyway? Whether you're doing experience or milestone leveling via quests/story arcs, is the warlock leveling at a different pace than others? Probably not. So does their patron matter, outside of mechanics?

I guess there's just so little provided to work with as a DM, and so much more of an expectation- the warlock-patron relationship seems closer/more "present" than a paladin oath/cleric faith because supposedly warlocks need to be periodically doing direct tasks for their patron if they want more class features.
I've been trying to nail down my issues, and to figure out solutions- I guess the other thing is, it seems like almost anything can be a warlock patron. You don't need a deity- lowish-CR creatures can be warlock patrons.. So it's hard to make a list of strictures n' such for warlocks.. since their patrons are basically "whatever."
I don't know, I'm still trying to figure this one out. Maybe it's just about GMing style, but again I've never had a problem with paladins n' clerics.

Has anyone else had this problem with warlocks?

Think of it like this:

Do you forbid your employees from learning new skills and becoming more effective employees, simply because they haven't met 100% of their stated goals prior to learning such skills? I would assume probably not, at least if you want to keep any actually good employees for more than one pay period. Do you fire employees on the spot if they happen to be having a bad week and thus have gotten fewer tasks done than usual? Again, I would assume probably not.

Warlocks are independent contractors working for an employer. That means, generally speaking, there is some lenience in the specific details of the task completion, because of the whole "independent" thing. You don't go auditing your books every day to make perfectly sure every independent contractor has spent exactly eight hours working and paid not one penny more than necessary and (etc., etc., etc.)--you give them the space to work and you check in on them from time to time for progress reports and updates.

Now, in the case of the warlock patron, there's a teensy bit more than that: what you specifically want from them probably changes over time, and (often) you're trying to change who they are to make them more like you. That means you want them to think your way, to think like you think, to work like you work. So, generally speaking, I think your problem is one of putting the cart before the horse.

You should be starting with "What demands did the patron make of you before you got your first taste of Real Power? And how did that Real Power feel? It felt good, didn't it? Great, even. You felt like a million bucks. And then it was gone--but you were promised all that and more, if you'd just go strangle Mrs. Ketterley's prized geese." Oh, and you'll get even more if you just pour this little bottle of "oil" into the village well--don't worry, nobody will die from it...no, I, your loving patron, wouldn't want to harm anyone in the village.

Etc. That's what you want in your Warlocks. You want them hungry for the deal. You want them like junkies. "I can quit at any time!" That's what the typical Warlock patron wants. Not a fervent believer. They want a proud skeptic who is oh-so-confident that they've never, ever been their patron's puppet.

And all the while, the patron's machinations advance. In all likelihood, they're being honest! No one in the village will be harmed--but the children who grow up drinking the water from that well will grow into Aberrant Sorcerers, and one of them will open a door that should have stayed closed. Or, someone will turn to dark forces to deal with the "threat" looming over the town because the forces of good can't find the source of the problem. Or, or, or--the world is your oyster.

Just remember: Think like an abusive manipulator, like a loan shark for superheroes. You don't want their soul. That's a lame consolation prize. You want their labor. Because with it...you can change the world.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've been playing and running since AD&D, so I have solid ideas of what the strictures of a cleric and paladin should be

You mean the ones removed in 5e?

In 1st edition, the restrictions on the paladin were intended to balance the power of the class. About half way through the run of 3e WotC figured out that role play restrictions didn’t work for mechanical balance. Ergo, in 5e only mechanics figure into class balance. So, if the DM tries to impose role playing restrictions when some classes don’t have them they are being fundamentally unfair. So it’s up to the player to decide on any role playing restrictions that affect their character, such as religious tenets or patron demands. It has been removed from the DM’s purview.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yea it's bad design built primarily so it caters to munchkinism under an umbrella of "RoLePlAyInG" that shields it from the gm ever leaning in or calling bs. All of that was before Crawford gleefully leaned in talking about how it was by intended design that the warlock patron couldn't expect or deny anything from the warlock.

I once had a table of players who were going off on a quest to clear out a ancient temple/tomb/fortress kinda thing so one of the players could do a thing there using the natural energy present (iirc it involved a wizard crafting a magic weapon for the party fighter). Wanting to involve more players by hooking in their PCs when I was building it I decided that it would be occupied by a group of fey of a different faction than the fey pact warlock in the party figuring that the self proclaimed roleplayers who loved reminding us would have some reaction to finding out it was get occupied.

When the players were given the quest it was made explicitly clear that the temple was fet occupied... No reaction from the feylock player.

The players had something∆ to finish in town after finding out about the quest. When one of the other players brought up a few minutes later how it might be a problem that they should plan for the warlock player literally said "no warlock doesn't work that way, my patron can't do anything to me even if it's their fey".

When the gm responded with uhh... You are always invoking the "I'm a RoLePlAyEr and.." swear and really should reach out.the fey pact player said "ok I do that"§.

When the player was pushed to elaborate on how, there was an effort to brush it off with "the way I usually do when I need to reach out"§. One of the other players (cleric maybe?) at the table called BS on that for the gm and convinced the fey pact player that they need to engage in & describe some kinda ritual like that time their cleric did x
$thing. "Oh I guess I buy cake and leave it in the Forest, let's go"§. The fey pact PC was visited by a fey messenger and told story stuff about the temple they were told to dedicate to their mutual patron/ruler so it could be claimed by them and taken from the fey who were defiling it. Party goes through the whole temple slaughtering fey who try to verbally make it personal with an enemy representative and the other players are more involved in the banter than the fey pact PC's player. At no point did the warlock player take any act whatsoever to claim or dedicate the temple to their patron and they literally cited Crawford on the matter. Obviously whatever fet based series of adventures was jettisoned into the nearest dumpster fire but the campaign continued for a few months of weekly sessions but ultimately that was also one of the last groups I was willing to run 5e for, I very much doubt that I would allow warlocks at my table if that were to change

∆it wasn't relevant what the something was. iirc it was holiday related and I gave their PCs Christmas presents or something silly?

§ Word For Word Quote. No over the months of play at that point the player had not once attempted to reach out to the patron