D&D 5E Warlocks seem pointless

[TrippyHippy]

Certainly. It does depend upon the situation too, of course.

I would stress that there are enough mechanisms to eschew Strength as being critical to effective fighting though. The Finesse thing, especially, means that low Strength characters can be pretty effective - and of course, there’s nothing wrong with a Warlock that has a high Strength too. A Half Orc Warlock could be a good choice in this respect - though they’d be somewhat more menacing than charming.

 

[Ashrym]

I hadn't caught the part that the spell slots come back after a short rest, so thanks for that. I don't disagree that the role playing possibilities are tremendous. Also, my warlock is still just 4th level, and it sounds like some of the more desirable class features become available a bit later. However, at lower levels, this class does not seem to be on par with the others in the party, especially the fighter types and even the rogue. Thanks everyone for your input.

The warlock has great class features. Agonizing blast is available at 2nd level and leaves other cantrip spammers behind early and fast. They also have some reasonably good invocations that replicate 1st level spells at will also available at 2nd level.

Having spell slots that recover every short rest (standard is 2 short rests per day) and every spell cast in those slots as the highest level available gives some potency throughout the day as other casters are using lower level slots and you are gaining more higher level slots faster than they are, and the best damage cantrip in the game with eldritch blast. There are very few methods of approaching weapon damage that have multiple attacks on spell casters using cantrips. A draconic sorcerer with enough sorcery points to quicken and double cast at higher levels, an evoker with free overchannel on cantrips at 14th level, and a warlock with agonizing blast (CHA mod is added to each bolt) plus any other bonuses.

Warlocks have the fastest recovery method for spell slots, but it's the at-will abilities available that support those slots whether it's eldritch blast, blade pact weapon, or at-will invocations. It's normal to need to fill out combat with cantrips for spell casters and warlocks have the best for damage.

At higher levels warlocks get up to 4 slots as other spell casters start to have a lot of slots. They also get 4 arcanum in addition to spell slots,and the capstone is 4 more slots once per day. That works out to casting 16 fifth level spells, 4 spells from 6th through 9th level, and 3 or 4 at-will spells. I like the invocations that give silent image, alter self, levitate, and arcane eye at will. I also prefer the tome pact to the other 2 pacts because of the extra cantrips from any list and ritual book that covers rituals from any spell list.

The class is competitive.

It takes an action to summon the weapon, and action to cast mage armor. Besides it makes him require 3-4 stats, strength for hit and damage, dexterity for ac and charisma for spells, and maybe con for survival. Also eldritch blast itself seems to override weapons in damage aspect easily.
To me it sounds suicidal to charge enemies with low ac and insignificant hp.

They are only adding one more ability focus for the weapon, and if it's a dex weapon that was normal anyway. Picking up medium armor and shield proficiency is easy enough to skip DEX and go STR instead. It takes more investment than eldritch blast spamming, but the investment pays off in better damage than eldritch blast, the ability to attack in melee range without disadvantage, and the drawback that inevitably comes with counter spelling / anti-magic. Feats tip the damage scale up and even if feats aren't an option in the campaign a good magical weapon will do it too.

 

[PnPgamer]

The warlock has great class features. Agonizing blast is available at 2nd level and leaves other cantrip spammers behind early and fast. They also have some reasonably good invocations that replicate 1st level spells at will also available at 2nd level.

Having spell slots that recover every short rest (standard is 2 short rests per day) and every spell cast in those slots as the highest level available gives some potency throughout the day as other casters are using lower level slots and you are gaining more higher level slots faster than they are, and the best damage cantrip in the game with eldritch blast. There are very few methods of approaching weapon damage that have multiple attacks on spell casters using cantrips. A draconic sorcerer with enough sorcery points to quicken and double cast at higher levels, an evoker with free overchannel on cantrips at 14th level, and a warlock with agonizing blast (CHA mod is added to each bolt) plus any other bonuses.

Warlocks have the fastest recovery method for spell slots, but it's the at-will abilities available that support those slots whether it's eldritch blast, blade pact weapon, or at-will invocations. It's normal to need to fill out combat with cantrips for spell casters and warlocks have the best for damage.

At higher levels warlocks get up to 4 slots as other spell casters start to have a lot of slots. They also get 4 arcanum in addition to spell slots,and the capstone is 4 more slots once per day. That works out to casting 16 fifth level spells, 4 spells from 6th through 9th level, and 3 or 4 at-will spells. I like the invocations that give silent image, alter self, levitate, and arcane eye at will. I also prefer the tome pact to the other 2 pacts because of the extra cantrips from any list and ritual book that covers rituals from any spell list.

The class is competitive.



They are only adding one more ability focus for the weapon, and if it's a dex weapon that was normal anyway. Picking up medium armor and shield proficiency is easy enough to skip DEX and go STR instead. It takes more investment than eldritch blast spamming, but the investment pays off in better damage than eldritch blast, the ability to attack in melee range without disadvantage, and the drawback that inevitably comes with counter spelling / anti-magic. Feats tip the damage scale up and even if feats aren't an option in the campaign a good magical weapon will do it too.

Id like to see some numbers supporting your claim that blade pact is greater damage than eldtritch blast, please. Can you give me like statuses at level 1, 3, 5 and maybe even 12?

 

[TrippyHippy]

You can’t get a Blade Pact till 3rd Level.

If you have a 3rd Level Warlock with, say, a +2 bonus from Strength (14) and proficiently wielding a 2d6 great sword, won’t this do more potential damage than a d10 Eldritch Blast? You can Hex both to add 1d6 damage on either too. Regardless of the Eldritch Blast option, a 3rd Level Warlock wielding a sword that does 3d6+2 Damage would be pretty impressive, and if your pact is with a Fiend, don’t forget all those bonus HP every time you kill…

At 5th level, both can increase the number of attacks (2 Blasts or using Thirsting Blade Invocation, respectively).

At 12th Level, your number of Blasts will be 3, which would overtake the sword damage I think, although you could enhance either with Cha bonuses due to Invocations. Mind, at this level, there are likely to be other offensive options through other spells too. Neither are mutual exclusive either.

 

[Quabbe]

Going blade pact with rapiers and dex 18 means you never get disadvantage on attack rolls in melee combat, dealing an average of 17 dmg at level 5 (two attacks), having a solid AC and probably more fun than standing in a corner firing eldritch blasts. Combined with feats like crossbow expert (or polearm master, if going the strg path) you even get one additional attack early. That increases the average dmg to 24,5.

The average dmg of eldritch blast at level 5 with 18 charisma is 19. Eldritch blasts starts to become better than blade when you get 4 beams, which will be at level 17.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Going blade pact with rapiers and dex 18 means you never get disadvantage on attack rolls in melee combat,

Ooh…where’s that from?

 

[Ashrym]

Id like to see some numbers supporting your claim that blade pact is greater damage than eldtritch blast, please. Can you give me like statuses at level 1, 3, 5 and maybe even 12?

At first level neither exists, at 3rd level the difference is 2d6 base vs 1d10 base for a slight advantage. Unless a +1 weapon is available or human variant with a feat has been taken (like pole arm master). At 4th level a feat is available regardless.

At 11th level that 3rd beam appears before the lifedrinker invocation at 12th level would be available for the blade pact and that can be impacting. Here are some numbers I posted at Giantip and you can ask if you have something specific you want to know.


At first level, TWF does more damage than eldritch blast. At second and third levels agonizing blast becomes available and the damage is still better using TWF because hex applies to both attacks. At fourth level the option is available for a feat or an ability increase. Great weapon master can be taken, or pole arm master can be taken. Caster would take CHA. This is what it looks like vs AC 16 with hex up and 18 CHA vs 16 STR, for example:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+1d6+1d6 for 1.1
50% standard -- 1d10+4+1d6 for 6.5
45% miss chance -- nada

At one attack 7.6 avg damage.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master used)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+10+d6+d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 2.02
20% standard -- 2d6+10+3+1d6 for 4.7
75% miss chance -- nada

At one attack for 6.72 avg damage and less than eldritch blast at this point.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master not used because the feat can simply be taken early and used on lower AC opponents)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+1d6+1d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 1.56375
45% standard -- 2d6+3+1d6 for 6.075
50% miss chance -- nada

At one attack for 7.63875 and almost identical to eldritch blast, very slightly better, with possible leverage on low AC targets.


Halberd (with pole arm master)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
45% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 5.4
50% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
45% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.05
50% miss chance -- nada

For both attacks 11.25 avg damage and better than eldritch blast or great weapon master.


There doesn't appear to be an issue where weapons are less damage than eldritch blast after taking accuracy into consideration when the feats become available at 4th level. At 5th level the second blast appears and the blade warlock gains access to the thirsting blade invocation for an extra attack.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+1d6+1d6 for 1.1
55% standard -- 1d10+4+1d6 for 7.15
40% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks 16.5 avg damage for a nice jump.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master used)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+10+d6+d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 2.07875 or 1.7 (crit can only give 1 bonus attack)
25% standard -- 2d6+10+3+1d6 for 5.875
70% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks for 15.52875 avg damage (and a miniscule amount more but I didn't both with chance for crit twice) and still less than eldritch blast at this point.


Great Sword (with heavy weapon master not used because the feat can simply be taken early and used on lower AC opponents)

5% crit chance -- 2d6+2d6+3+1d6+1d6 plus bonus attack for the crit for 1.5975 or 1.2 (crit can only give 1 bonus attack)
50% standard -- 2d6+3+1d6 for 6.75
45% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks for 16.2975 avg damage (and a miniscule amount more but I didn't both with chance for crit twice) and almost eldritch blast with possible leverage on low AC targets.


Halberd (with pole arm master)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6.0
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
50% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.5
45% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 19.35 avg damage and better than eldritch blast or great weapon master.


There doesn't appear to be an issue where weapons are less damage than eldritch blast after taking accuracy into consideration when the extra attacks become available at fifth level. The crit chance bonus attack loses a bit because it can only be done once regardless and great weapon master is pretty similar in damage (better if a magic weapon becomes available). Pole arm master is still the better option. At 8th level both feats can be combined while number of attacks remains the same, and the eldritch blast caster can jump up to 20 CHA.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
60% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 8.4
35% miss chance -- nada

At two attacks 19.1 avg damage for a small jump and still behind pole arm master with a halberd at 5th level.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
25% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 5.5
70% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.25
25% standard -- 1d4+3+10+1d6 for 4.75
70% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
25% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 5.5
70% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 20.202375 avg damage and better than eldritch blast, and a slight bump up.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master not using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+1d6+1d6 for 0.75
50% standard -- 1d4+3+1d6 for 4.5
45% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+1d6+1d6 for 1.05
50% standard -- 1d10+3+1d6 for 6
45% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 19.5255 avg damage and better than eldritch blast, and slightly lower than applying both feats.


At eighth level, the feats are still the superior choice due to the ability to run 3 attacks first. Levels 12, 16, and 19 can be used to apply ability modifiers for the weapons. At level eleven, eldritch blast gets a third attack while life drinker isn't available until twelth level. At level eleven, it looks like this.


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
65% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 9.1
30% miss chance -- nada

At three attacks 30.75 avg damage for a good jump.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
30% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 6.6
65% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.25
30% standard -- 1d4+3+10+1d6 for 5.7
65% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+3+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.55
30% standard -- 1d10+3+10+1d6 for 6.6
65% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 23.367 avg damage and a bump up but finally behind eldritch blast; at least ignoring the likelihood of a magical weapon by this point.


So far, most levels favor weapon combat given similar bonuses. Eleventh level is a nice boost with third attack for eldritch blast but level twelve is another boost for the blade warlock. At level twelve it looks more like this:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 1.15
65% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 9.1
30% miss chance -- nada

At three attacks 30.75 avg damage and no change from eleventh level.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.7
35% standard -- 1d10+4+2+10+1d6 for 8.75
60% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (90.25%)
5% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.4
35% standard -- 1d4+4+2+10+1d6 for 7.7
60% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (9.75% chance)
5% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+4+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 1.7
35% standard -- 1d10+4+2+10+1d6 for 8.75
60% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 30.131625 avg damage having added +2 damage for CHA bonus and using the ability increase for STR, back ahead of eldritch blast and still assuming no magic pole arm.


Let's skip ahead to 17th level because there aren't a lot of big jumps until then. Giving STR and the next ability increase again for the blade warlock, foresight for both, and a 4th attack for eldritch blast it looks more like this:


Eldritch Blast (with agonizing and hex):

9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+1d6+1d6 for 2.2425
74.25% standard -- 1d10+5+1d6 for 10.395
4% miss chance -- nada

At four attacks for 50.55 avg damage and rather nice damage.


Halberd (with pole arm master and great weapon master using -5/+10)

Main Attack
9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 3.4125
70% standard -- 1d10+5+2+10+1d6 for 18.2
20.25% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack non crit main attacks (81.450625%)
9.75% crit chance -- 1d4+1d4+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 2.8275
70% standard -- 1d4+5+2+10+1d6 for 16.24
20.25% miss chance -- nada

Bonus Attack crit main attacks (18.549375% chance)
9.75% crit chance -- 1d10+1d10+5+2+10+1d6+1d6 for 3.4125
70% standard -- 1d10+5+2+10+1d6 for 18.2
20.25% miss chance -- nada

For all attacks 62.76458159375 avg damage and still ahead of eldritch blast and still assuming no magic pole arm.


This allows for moderately armored on a variant human at first level. Pole arm mastery doesn't list the bonus attack as anything other than a 1d4 bonus attack so no restriction for ability modifier damage applies and the 3 attacks early gives a good advantage in damage.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Heh…just noted that the Great Weapon Master feat allows you to make follow on attacks if you reduce target to 0 points in one blow as well as Crits. You can also reduce your attack roll by 5 to add +10 Damage. And you collect Temp HP whenever you kill…..hmmm..

 

[PnPgamer]

Whoa! I take it back, blade pact is awesome. It increases way into ridiculousness if the character gets a magical weapon!
Being human is almost necessary though, the starting feat just grants so much more, armor or early offensive feats mentioned. If you find a girdle of giant strength, the potential goes even upwards.

Could it be said that blade pact has potential to be more, depending on dm generosity, but focusing on eldtritch blast is a "safe" route to take?

 

[TrippyHippy]

Could it be said that blade pact has potential to be more, depending on dm generosity, but eldtritch blast is a "safe" route to take?

Yep. The Eldritch Blast is just an easy cantrip option from Level 1 onwards. The various pacts, including blade, are the ones that come to life if you consider the combinations with other features on offer - but require a small element of rules mastery to make the best of them.