D&D 5E Warlord Healing

Do warlords need in-combat healing abilities?

  • Warlords must have true in-combat healing.

    Votes: 23 18.0%
  • Warlords must have some form of damage mitigation, but not necessarily true healing.

    Votes: 43 33.6%
  • Warlords don't need damage mitigation abilities.

    Votes: 12 9.4%
  • I have no interest in a 5E warlord class.

    Votes: 50 39.1%

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Can you treat disease with a first aid kit? Bandages, gauze, pain killers, tape and the like? What in the kit works against disease? Okay, disinfectant prevents infection from a wound, but it's not going to do squat against something you've ingested or come into contact with through the air.
The answer is "no more than I could reliably stabilize someone suffering from a potentially fatal wound."
That goes double in the middle of a combat.
It's stretching to say that would be able to treat disease or remove a physical condition. It had one use: stabilize the dying. Anything else is a house rule.
One of the two diseases listed in the DMG is treatable with a rare flower processed by a herbalism kit. So there's some precedent for non-magical treatment of disease. It's just so patchy it's like disease in general was an afterthought, and the overlap between healer's kits, the medicine skill and herbalism skill is just wierd, which is what you expect from an afterthought.
Still, that's only a way to negate the penalty at the cost of your entire action. There's still no way to actually remove it. The warlord has to spent their entire turn every turn keeping an allying fighting remotely normally. Oh, and the character still automatically fails any ability check related to sight. So that sucks.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here - my point is that new battlemaster maneuvers could be created that could fill these niches (ie - "Coordinated targetting - spend a superiority die to negate disadvantage for one ally/advantage against one ally as long as you are not suffering from the same effect, duration:concentration or 1 minute"). Not as effective as curing the condition, but possibly broader in application.
Bringing people back from near death is more Hollywood realism that still doesn't translate well. Just because you have dragons doesn't mean all the rules of reality and physics go out the window. It's not a "get out of logic free" card. The magic is cool and interesting because it's the exception to reality.
Bringing people back from near death is such a mundane event that a large number of public sites have a machine that will allow a layperson to do it. This isn't fantasy.
Letting a non-magical individual do it in a fantasy game is not that big of a stretch.
A theoretical warlord might have an ability that let them bring someone back who was dead for a few rounds, but any longer and that steps on paladin toes (and creates a free version of a spell that costs 300gp).
I don't give a crap about 'stepping on toes', especially since I'm arguing with someone who's saying I'm in a completely nonmagical party. You might be right about the free version of an expensive spell - but that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental flaw with the idea.
But, really, if the warlord can get to the character that quickly, why weren't they healing them earlier? That's the problem. People die when you have a healer because they're out of healing, the healer was out of commission, or something like a coup de grace or massive damage happened.
If we stick to revivify, it's a minute. And people die because in combat healing cannot keep up with in combat damage.
Let's see, in 3rd Edition remove paralysis and remove blindness/deafness were cleric/ paladin spells, remove disease was cleric/druid/ranger, remove fear was cleric/bard, and neutralize poison was bard/cleric/druid/ranger/paladin. Only remove curse had different classes, being bard/cleric/paladin/sorcerer/wizard. Oh, and stone to flesh was a wizard/sorcerer spell.
You missed break enchantment, which was the "everyone can potentially get rid of almost anything of 5th level or lower" spell available to almost everyone. Disease and poison were treatable by skill checks, fear is a temporary thing anyway (and would be well within the bailiwick of mundane dispelling I would think).
So big improvement for 5e over past editions by making three classes equally adept at filling the healer role, and allowing two others to do half the removal and be adequate back-up healers. I don't see it being necessary to include the restoration or cure wound spells on the wizard and sorcerer spell lists.
No, I'd much rather see other wizardly abilities to mitigate party damage. Hello Mr abjuration specialist! I think stone to flesh is a perfect example, especially since it used to come free with learning flesh to stone, and like you point out had some interesting utility uses. I seem to remember at one stage false life didn't have a self-only target too? I could be wrong of course...
But, again, the catch is that any class designed to fill the roll of the bard/druid/cleric should have access to those spells or comparable abilities. Otherwise they cannot fully do their role. It's like making a tank with d6 hit points; yeah, you might have the high AC but you can't stand up to many attacks. Relying on other classes to use those spells doesn't work, since that means the class isn't filling its role. That's like the fighter relying on the rogue for some damage mitigation or the evoker wizard requiring the ranger to keep their damage high.
Teamwork isn't a curse word. And the fighter should be relying on the entire party for damage mitigation - otherwise every monster in the fight is targeting one guy, and he's not getting any healing...
Especially since, half the classes in the game don't get the spells. If you're a party with a warlord and three other characters pulled from the list of barbarian, fighter, monk, rogue, wizard, sorcerer, warlock (or even a bard that doesn't take those spells) and someone gets diseased or blinded then the warlord isn't going to be able to help. They have to stop adventuring and go find a temple or roll up a new character.
Which is sort of my point - it shouldn't be that way, and it really doesn't have to be unless you're unwilling to say that in a world where we have examples of non-magical fantastical things, that anything a martial character does cannot be fantastic.
A new save would be good. But it's super easy to fail a save even with advantage. And that'd be a great warlord power.
Not sure what your trailing off sentence was, but allowing extra attempts to 'shake it off' seems on a par with hoping that the cleric has prepared the right spell today.
"Shake it off - as an action you may spend a superiority die to allow an ally to reattempt a save against a condition or effect that currently affects them. They may add the superiority die to their save result. The save is against the original DC of the effect."
But if we're accepting a warlord that's not quite a full healer - if we have to accept one that is "close enough" but cannot do everything - that can also apply to things like not easily getting unconscious creatures back in the fight. Or using temporary hit points instead of restoring health. Because they're not replacements for a cleric/druid/bard but their own class entirely, in the same way a warlock can kinda replace a wizard but not in every way and a ranger or bard can kinda replace a rogue but not in every way. We can worry less about fitting some arbitrary "role" that doesn't *really* exist as a design space in the game and focus on making a warlord that is really good at doing warlordy things rather than a warlord that is really good at doing clerical things.
Personally I would rather create a viable party. I think that does include getting unconscious people back on their feet, and I see that as being something that should be possible without magic.

Further, I think that with an expanded maneuvers system, the battlemaster is the class to do it.
 

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One of the two diseases listed in the DMG is treatable with a rare flower processed by a herbalism kit. So there's some precedent for non-magical treatment of disease. It's just so patchy it's like disease in general was an afterthought, and the overlap between healer's kits, the medicine skill and herbalism skill is just wierd, which is what you expect from an afterthought.
Almost like it was written three months after the PHB?
;)
But, seriously, there's a huge difference in treating a disease with a specific herbal remedy and all diseases.

Bringing people back from near death is such a mundane event that a large number of public sites have a machine that will allow a layperson to do it. This isn't fantasy.
Letting a non-magical individual do it in a fantasy game is not that big of a stretch.
Defibrillator don't bring back the dead. They restore normal cardiac rhythm by shocking the heart into stopping and then restarting. The usage of defibrillators into blasting dead people back to life ONLY happens in the movies and television. It is not an accurate representation of the use of the device. It *is* fantasy.

I don't give a crap about 'stepping on toes', especially since I'm arguing with someone who's saying I'm in a completely nonmagical party. You might be right about the free version of an expensive spell - but that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental flaw with the idea.
I'm NOT saying you're in a nonmagical party. I'm suggesting that the warlord being in a party without a bard or a cleric or a druid. Which is not that unlikely. And if you still NEED a bard or cleric or druid in the party with the warlord to have the benefits of a full healer then the warlord isn't working as a full healer.

You missed break enchantment, which was the "everyone can potentially get rid of almost anything of 5th level or lower" spell available to almost everyone. Disease and poison were treatable by skill checks, fear is a temporary thing anyway (and would be well within the bailiwick of mundane dispelling I would think).
Break enchantment worked against enchantments, transmutations, and curses. So, really only spell effects. And required a caster check, so it could fail. Really, that was a super version of dispel magic. Handy (and useful to sorcerer and wizards) but not amazing. And still unlikely to be known by the sorcerer or prepared all the time by the wizard.

Teamwork isn't a curse word. And the fighter should be relying on the entire party for damage mitigation - otherwise every monster in the fight is targeting one guy, and he's not getting any healing...
But, if designing a class specifically to fill a role (i.e. a class to replace the cleric for people who don't want to play a cleric), if it cannot entirely fill that role then it's failed.

Which is sort of my point - it shouldn't be that way, and it really doesn't have to be unless you're unwilling to say that in a world where we have examples of non-magical fantastical things, that anything a martial character does cannot be fantastic.
Martial characters can do nigh-fantastic things. Amazing things. But once they start doing magical things they're no longer martial characters.
Batman is defined by being the non-super hero on the Justice League. Batman doing some pretty damn fantastic stuff. I'll buy a car riding up a wall or a memory-fabric cape that allows someone to glide, and more. Especially in a universe with aliens and people who talk to plants - which is just as fantastic as any D&D world. But once Batman starts flying or gains super strength, what makes him special is gone. He's lost a defining element of what makes him Batman. Just like if a fighter starts doing the patently impossible, they stop being a fighter, as fighters are defined as mundane unmagical people who are just really badass with weapons and armour.

Personally I would rather create a viable party.
Players create parties. The game design or planning of classes is largely independent of that. Players are welcome to create as viable or inviable parties as they wish.

I think that does include getting unconscious people back on their feet, and I see that as being something that should be possible without magic.
And I don't always see that as being possible, not from all possible causes of damage. Or, at least, healing damage. Which is the topic of this thread. If warlords should heal.

Further, I think that with an expanded maneuvers system, the battlemaster is the class to do it.
For my homebrew "warlord", I oped to go for a new subclass: http://www.5mwd.com/archives/2383#commander
(Which actually includes a maneuver called "shake it off")
 

If the game allows for someone to move 30' (possibly more depending on race), reach out and apply whatever salves are needed from a healer's kit to someone wearing armor, while in the middle of a fight with multiple enemies, all within a turn, I don't see how immersion breaking a warlord inspiring people to suck it up with a few words can be.

Heh. Good point about the armor. :) 5E can be silly sometimes.
 

My issue with shout healing isn't that your healing someone by a shout. (Ya it's silly, but I'll buy it.) It's more that if you use healing, then you have to limit it to a number of times per day. That is a harder for me to buy that you can only shout encouragement so many times a day. I don't like that. It kind of brakes my narrative understanding that martial powers can be used as much as you want.

That is one reason why I like 5E's Inspiring Leader feat.

1.) It's not Vancian. (Because Vancian magic is supposed to be for, well, magic.)
2.) Fluff-wise, it has good effects: followers of an Inspiring Leader will have much more resilient morale when the going gets tough, because they know they're not one Fireball away from death.
3.) It's mechanically useful. Perhaps too much so, but then I'm a powergamer at heart anyway.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Almost like it was written three months after the PHB?
;)
There's a difference between "was done thoroughly at a later date" and "afterthought". After all, it's the PHB that introduces 2 different kits and 2 different skills for
But, seriously, there's a huge difference in treating a disease with a specific herbal remedy and all diseases.
Well, sure. But diseases that require specific rare flowers to treat should be the exception. Outside of them, I would expect medicine and herbalism to be able to at least help with their treatment.
Defibrillator don't bring back the dead.
Yeah, my first aid training is old enough that I wasn't really trained in them. That said, the same article you refer to also talks about standard CPR being effective within 4 minutes. There is formal documentation of cpr methods going back to the early 1700s, so presumably there was isolated practise prior to that. That's not fantasy.
I'm NOT saying you're in a nonmagical party. I'm suggesting that the warlord being in a party without a bard or a cleric or a druid. Which is not that unlikely. And if you still NEED a bard or cleric or druid in the party with the warlord to have the benefits of a full healer then the warlord isn't working as a full healer.


Break enchantment worked against enchantments, transmutations, and curses. So, really only spell effects. And required a caster check, so it could fail. Really, that was a super version of dispel magic. Handy (and useful to sorcerer and wizards) but not amazing. And still unlikely to be known by the sorcerer or prepared all the time by the wizard.
No - the bulk of magical effects. It's wasn't restricted to working against spells, so it works just fine on (say) a basilisk's petrification, or a mummy's curse. In otherwords if you're afflicted by something magical, you could rely on almost any spellcaster to have access to the spell to fix it.
But, if designing a class specifically to fill a role (i.e. a class to replace the cleric for people who don't want to play a cleric), if it cannot entirely fill that role then it's failed.
Which is only a problem if you say fixing every ill is the bailiwick of a cleric. If you just say that fixing magical ills requires magic then you don't have a role issue. Unfortunately the greater restoration approach effectively makes it so that only people with that particular spell can be a party healer.
Martial characters can do nigh-fantastic things. Amazing things. But once they start doing magical things they're no longer martial characters.
Batman is defined by being the non-super hero on the Justice League. Batman doing some pretty damn fantastic stuff. I'll buy a car riding up a wall or a memory-fabric cape that allows someone to glide, and more. Especially in a universe with aliens and people who talk to plants - which is just as fantastic as any D&D world. But once Batman starts flying or gains super strength, what makes him special is gone. He's lost a defining element of what makes him Batman. Just like if a fighter starts doing the patently impossible, they stop being a fighter, as fighters are defined as mundane unmagical people who are just really badass with weapons and armour.
The thing is that your definition of magical things seems to include things which we know are possible. You can resuscitate someone who has died of blood loss. You can cure diseases with the right herbs. You can treat poison with tourniquets and water.
Players create parties. The game design or planning of classes is largely independent of that. Players are welcome to create as viable or inviable parties as they wish.
No, the game design of classes makes or breaks in. In 3.5e, a wizard, a rogue, a barbarian and a fighter was a viable party, because as long as someone had the heal skill, you were covered against almost all the things we are discussing in this thread. In 5e, you MUST have greater restoration to treat the bulk of conditions, and only 3 classes get it.
And I don't always see that as being possible, not from all possible causes of damage. Or, at least, healing damage. Which is the topic of this thread. If warlords should heal.
Which really all comes down to how you narrate damage. Personally I think it works out easiest if you leave it vague.
For my homebrew "warlord", I oped to go for a new subclass: http://www.5mwd.com/archives/2383#commander
(Which actually includes a maneuver called "shake it off")
To my eyes, that's very similar to what I've proposed, and to the battlemaster. Which is good!
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Bringing people back from near death is such a mundane event that a large number of public sites have a machine that will allow a layperson to do it. This isn't fantasy.
Letting a non-magical individual do it in a fantasy game is not that big of a stretch.

Defibrillator don't bring back the dead. They restore normal cardiac rhythm by shocking the heart into stopping and then restarting. The usage of defibrillators into blasting dead people back to life ONLY happens in the movies and television. It is not an accurate representation of the use of the device. It *is* fantasy.

Seaviomagy said "near death," not "back from the dead."

While it's true that this is an overused trope in fiction, in real-life it is not fantasy, and laypersons can do it.

In D&D parlance, bringing someone back from the dead is restoring someone that was at 0 HP and failed three death saving throws (or took max negative HP damage beyond zero, or some other magical/mundane effect).

Simply being at 0 HP is not "Dead."

Seaviomagy is talking about restoration from 0 HP. You're talking about Resurrection.

Nobody is saying a Warlord should be able to resurrect, but they should be able to restore someone from 0 HP.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Also, a defibrillator does not "stop and then restart the heart." Defibrillators depolarize the heart muscle allowing the heart's own pacemaker cells to reassert proper rhythm. They use a high voltage, low current, high frequency biphasic signal. It basically works like a degausser - though a very high tech, highly specialized, neurological degausser.

The heart does not stop (if it's currently beating), and the defibrillator does not restart a heart that's not beating (the pacemaker cells do that).

What appears to be one contraction when looking at an ECG during defibrillation, is actually a series of very, very fast contractions and relaxations occurring during the time the pulses are applied (a cycle about once every 12 milliseconds).
 
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Seaviomagy said "near death," not "back from the dead."

While it's true that this is an overused trope in fiction, in real-life it is not fantasy, and laypersons can do it.

In D&D parlance, bringing someone back from the dead is restoring someone that was at 0 HP and failed three death saving throws (or took max negative HP damage beyond zero, or some other magical/mundane effect).

Simply being at 0 HP is not "Dead."

Seaviomagy is talking about restoration from 0 HP. You're talking about Resurrection.

Nobody is saying a Warlord should be able to resurrect, but they should be able to restore someone from 0 HP.
Actually, asking for the warlord to ressurect was *exactly* what he was asking. Seriously. Read the other posts.
He suggested a power similar to the paladin revivication spell. He was suggesting the warlord raise the dead, defining dead for less than a minute as "slightly dead". Which is not that different from how a warlord can change " injured" to "tired and winded" after they heal.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Actually, asking for the warlord to ressurect was *exactly* what he was asking. Seriously. Read the other posts.
He suggested a power similar to the paladin revivication spell. He was suggesting the warlord raise the dead, defining dead for less than a minute as "slightly dead". Which is not that different from how a warlord can change " injured" to "tired and winded" after they heal.

Ah...I see. Yeah, I wouldn't want a Warlord to do that either. Sure, in real-life we're able to bring people back - sometimes - that have been dead far longer than a minute; but part of that is due to our modern understanding of death.

I'd have to make the assumption that Dead in the Revivify spell is more "The Soul Has Left The Building" kind of Death - the "character failed three death saves" Death. In which case, I don't think the Warlord should be able to do that.

My bad. Sorry for sticking my nose in without reading the whole conversation...:blush:
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Just to clarify - I am definitely saying that a revivify like ability (ie - return a character who is dead to life within 1 minute, doesn't fix any issues like missing limbs or disintegration) on a martial character would not stretch the bounds of my credulity, given that:
1) The actual mechanism for a death due to loss of hitpoints is incredibly vague.
2) Death in general in 5e D&D is fairly rare, and the intersection of a death and an available pseudo-revivify is not guaranteed.
3) Methods for bringing people back to life from certain types of death and within time frames that exceed the time limit of revivify by large amounts is something that has been formally documented since the early 17th century, and therefore most likely existed in a less widespread form prior to that.
 

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