Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[Felon]

I'm currently playing a Duskblade and find it satisfactory. I'm just start a war of the burning sky with the plans to go Ninja3/F1/Wizard5/Abjurant Champion5/EK6. Yes I'm taking the best and going to play it to my fun. I don't get everything but should have fun doing it.

Looks sufficiently nasty, though you seem to have some wizard levels that could be EK levels. I take it there are no multi-classing penalties in this campaign?

 

[Felon]

Efficiency wise, the way to play EK isn't in hurling fireballs and lightning bolts but going up close in melee (or range) with all your buffs. Your buffs are your edge over the non-spellcasting warrior (especially buffs that can't be found on most, non-customized magic items).

So, what are your favorite buffs (that you can't get from items)?

 

[charlesatan]

So, what are your favorite buffs (that you can't get from items)?

Wraithstrike.

Polymorph/Metamorphosis (although there is a Psionic Tattoo that bestows this ability 1/day). Draconic Polymorph (+8 Str, +2 Con)

Bite of the Werebear (+16 Str, +8 Con)

Superior Invisibility

Arcane Strike (not really a spell)

Greater Mighty Wallop (turn that 1d12 Greathammer into 8d6)

Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (1/2 caster level morale bonus to damage)

Dragonsight (blindsense, darkvision, etc.)

There's also a bunch of other buffs in Complete Mage.

P.S. Here's a 20th-level Warrior-Mage build: not my best but it's there for simplicity (hence no Polymorph!): http://charlesatan.vox.com/library/post/sample-20thlevel-pc-gish.html

 

[charlesatan]

Also, if I wanted to crunch the numbers, I'd cast the following:

Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) into a Firbolg (MM2): Firbolg has base Str 36 and with Draconic Polymorph's +8 Str, that brings us to Str 44. This lasts hour/level minute/level.

First round of combat, I'll cast Bite of the Werebear (Spell Compedium). It gives me a +16 enhancement to Str. So my Str now is 60.

Assuming I have a caster level of 18 (assuming I used an Eldritch Knight Build), I can cast a Quicked Ferocity of Sanguine Rage which gives me +9 morale bonus to damage.

I'm holding a two-handed Greatclub that's enchanted with Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon), bringing up by weapon damage to 6d8. So that's 6d8+46 points of damage. That's not counting the enhancement bonus of the weapon. Or Arcane Strike. Or Power Attacking and casting Wraith Strike.

 

[glass]

The core philosophy of 3e+ and the thing which you don't seem to be accepting is that you can multiclass aplenty but you always have to give something up.

Yes, but what you give up souldn't be 'any hope of ever contributing to the group in an significant way before your immenant and ignominious demise'. Which is what you are advocating.


glass.

 

[StGabe]

FWIW, the character that is effectively a gestalt fighter/mage is the Abjurant Champion. As I stated, the classes that do at least slightly stagger the casting progression and/or the hit die are at least a start towards balance. The EK, for example, is far closer to balanced than the Champion although a quick comparison to other classes demonstrates that it's not nearly there.

It's all well and good to say "yeah but I just want to buff myself for combat". Ok, great. But you don't need level 9 spells for that and you really have no business having them with a BAB that is better than a rogue or a monks. All that's well and good, yet, you still do have those level 9 spells and the Wizard class was built with the lowest hit die and BAB for a reason -- the spells are *that* powerful.

On whether a 10/10 fighter/mage is as powerful as other classes or not, I'll grant you that some synergy is lost. However, such a combo is still quite effective. You don't have to have Wish. Such a character still has a lot of great spells and with ready access to buffs and an excellent BAB end up with combat durabilty and damage that are quite competitive with a rogue or monk of the same level. I don't comprehend why you should expect more than that except that there is an inherent mentality that "if I'm not the most powerful character in the party then I can't have fun". Multiclassing is about give and take and yes, sometimes you give up synergy if you go for a build that "has it all". If you need to have just as good of buffs as the pure wizard in the party then what's his job? Why do you expect to be just as good as him and also be almost as good of a tank/warrior as the fighter? Where the heck is the bard in all this? Or the sorceror (who is casting the same level spells as you if you go wizard and without any combat ability whatsoever)? Heck, what does the cleric do but be a healbot?

...

As for those who are "ignoring me". Have at it. I'm providing an alternative view. I'm a DM and I'm also a professional game developer (albeit video games, not pen and paper). Balance is important to me and I have a lot of experience creating game systems. The term "viable" in the title meant to me "what is viable gameplay-wise" and I'm just offering my opinion on that. An opinion that you can take or leave as you will.

 

[glass]

Also the Bladesinger and Spellsword do at least give up some spell progression for their abilities.

All the PrCs mentioned in this thread do that (with the possible exception of the Abjurant Champion).


glass.

 

[Felon]

Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) into a Firbolg (MM2): Firbolg has base Str 36 and with Draconic Polymorph's +8 Str, that brings us to Str 44. This lasts hour/level.

Sounds quite handily broken. Something I'm missing?

 

[Storyteller01]

That's a fine approach, but to be clear that's just not what I started this thread for. This is an examanation purely of mechanical viability--"min-maxing" if you will.

Right, but this isn't a professional sport. There isn't much point to min-maxing if the only reward is bragging rights ('My character is statistaically better than yours!!!).

 

[charlesatan]

Sounds quite handily broken. Something I'm missing?

Well it depends on your school of thought:

1) Polymorph is broken. Obviously, Draconic Polymorph will be doubly so.

2) Polymorph isn't broken. Well Draconic Polymorph is just extending that a bit. Or you could always still stick to plain 'ol Polymorph and instead of Str 60 you settle for Str 52.

But at the end of the day, while it's more difficult to aim for, there's Shapechange at 9th-level. Or the Psionic Tattoo that manifests Metamorphosis (the Psionic Polymorph) 1/day.

And the build I posted on my blog easily doesn't use Polymorph. Or if you don't Polymorph into a Firbolg or a War Troll or some insane creature, you can always do the simple "I Polymorph into a Hydra and use Wraithstrike".