Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[charlesatan]

Don't think anybody's mentioned the RageMage yet.

It gets spell progression on even levels, can cast while raging, ignores a small amount of ASF, and gains some bonuses to spells while raging over 10 levels. I've never played one so I'll let somebody else cover how balanced it is.

I did but it doesn't seem anyone noticed it, along with my suggestion of the Dragonslayer from Draconomicon. It's honestly fine in the sense that it's not broken but the only other reason aside from flavor to take it is to acquire a high DC when it comes to spell saving throws.

There's also the Green Star Adept from Complete Arcane which is another ho-hum class (nothing to rave about) that seems to exist primarily as flavor.

Personally I also like the Suel Arcanamach from Complete Arcane although it follows its own spellcasting progression rather than improving your existing one.

Here's some other gish (I cannot resist! I will call warrior-mages gish!) I forgot to mention: Platinum Knight (Draconomicon, 5/10 spellcasting progression, Ftr BAB), Talon of Tiamat (Draconomicon, 5/10 spellcasting progression, Clr BAB), Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon, 2/5 spellcasting progression, Clr BAB), Shadowsmith (Tome of Magic, own spellcasting progression, Ftr BAB), Knights of the Thorn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, 10/10 spellcasting progression, Clr BAB), Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine, 10/10 spellcasting progression, Clr BAB), Topaz Guardian (Lords of Madness, 3/5 spellcasting progression, Ftr BAB), and probably a few others from Forgotten Realms.

Edit: FR-specific: Knights of the Weave (Champions of Valor, own spellcasting progression, Clr BAB), Gray Hand Enforcer (City of Splendors, 4/5 spellcasting, Ftr BAB), Knight of the Blue Moon (City of Spelndors, 5/5 spellcasting, Clr BAB), Evereskan Tomb Guardian (Player's Guide to Faerun, 5/5 spellcasting, Clr BAB), Naga Overlord (Serpent Kingdoms, 10/10 spellcasting, Clr BAB), Raumathari Battle Mage (Unapproachable East, 9/10 spellcasting, Clr BAB), Runscarred Berserker (Unapproachable East, own spellcasting, Ftr BAB), Arachnomancer (Underdark, 7/10 spellcasting, Clr BAB).

 

[Nonlethal Force]

One interesting rules note here is that the core rules make a point to talk about associated class levels with regard to improving monsters. In other words, if you give the MM Grimlock (or some such creature) a full level of sorcerer, it really isn't going to make the creature into a true CR 2. The strengths of a Grimlock just don't scream "add magic levels!" (especially that CHA 6, but we'll ignore that for now).

So ... we have a note that says use non-associated class levels as 1/2 CR until the class level equals the original creature's HD. [That would be 2 for the above mentioned Grimlock, if anyone is counting.]

I think the same comparison could easily be extrapolated to class advancement. I know this isn't by the actual rules, hence I called it an extrapolation:

Fighter 19 has 19 associated class levels, so is reasonably a CR 19.
Wizard 19 has 19 associated class levels, so it is reasonably a CR 19.

Fighter 10/Wizard 9 would have 10 associated class levels and 9 nonassociated class levels and could be argued to be about a CR 15. In play, that's not far off ... actually. Perhaps it is a CR 16 combo. But it is certainly not a CR 19 combo!


The Figher 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 is supposed to be a CR 16 combination. In an overidealized comparison of classes, it is about as good of a pure fighter as a fighter 11 and as good of a caster as a wizard 14. So, 14 associated class levels plus 5.5 non-associated class levels might make someone to think that it is actually a CR 19 or 20. I think this is what happens when people simply say "but it has almost full casting and has full BAB!" This analysis is similar to the process of evaluation that the mind just performed.

But, remember that the hit die are siginficantly reduced for all those supposed fighter levels (instead of 11d10 it is really 1d10+10d6). Oh, and they didn't get the bonus feats, either (The get the bonus at 1st level, but missed out on 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th - that's five feats short!). For that matter, they lost out on a bonus feat for the wizard (10th level Wizard) and any familiar development past Wizard 5. Take all that into account and the desired CR 16 is a decent guess as a scale down from the over idealized CR 19 or 20.

I think the EK is a reasonably balanced class. It doesn't succeed in all circumstances and it certainly has weaknesses that a DM can exploit by CR 16 opponents!

 

[charlesatan]

One interesting rules note here is that the core rules make a point to talk about associated class levels with regard to improving monsters. In other words, if you give the MM Grimlock (or some such creature) a full level of sorcerer, it really isn't going to make the creature into a true CR 2. The strengths of a Grimlock just don't scream "add magic levels!" (especially that CHA 6, but we'll ignore that for now).

Honestly, I stopped following that. It's simply prone to abuse, especially at the hands of high HD monsters. It's about as flawed as increasing a monster's HD 4 times and it only acquiring +1 CR. It's a good guide, mind you, but if taken too literally (and without GM discretion), there's an inflation in a monster's threat.

Fighter 10/Wizard 9 would have 10 associated class levels and 9 nonassociated class levels and could be argued to be about a CR 15. In play, that's not far off ... actually. Perhaps it is a CR 16 combo. But it is certainly not a CR 19 combo!

I think what you're looking for is synergy. A Barbarian 10/Fighter 10 for example has a bigger synergy compared to a Fighter 10/Wizard 10. Still, the Fighter 10/Wizard 10 still has better synergy than a Brd 4/Clr 4/Drd 4/Sor 4/Wiz 4. I'd honestly keep the Fighter 10/Wizard 9 a CR 19 threat although there will be times when a Fighter 19 or Wizard 19 will prove to be the better CR 19 threat. The Brd 4/Clr 4/Drd 4/Sor 4/Wiz 4, however, isn't a CR 20 threat even if it's supposed to be one, but so is a Ftr 20 who took Toughness as ALL of his feats.

I think the EK is a reasonably balanced class.

In this I will agree.

 

[charlesatan]

I ignored StGabe right at the start, making this thread better for me

That was probably the wiser course of action.

Everyone knows that gestalt classes are way more powerful and only work if consciously balanced otherwise, so why do people seem to think that prestige classes which are basically just gestalt fighter/wizard's (one of the most potent gestalt combos of course) aren't broken?

Because that's a simple oversimplification. Eldritch Knights aren't simply Fighter/Wizard gestalts any more that the Hexblade or Duskblade is a gestalt of Fighter/Wizard.

Mathematically speaking, here's what you get with a Fighter Wizard gestalt:

20d10 hit points (average 110), +20 BAB, +12 Fort, +8 Ref, +12 Will, 11 Fighter bonus feats, 4 Metamagic/Item Creation/Complete Mage feats, caster level 20, 4 spells per day from 0-9th level Sor/Wiz spells (not counting bonus spells).

Simplifying the Eldritch Knight build, there are two possibilities:

1) Wiz 9/Ftr 1/Eldritch Knight 10:

9d4 plus 1d10 plus 10d6 hit points (average 60), +15 BAB, +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +9 Will, 2 Fighter bonus feats, 1 Metamagic/Item Creation/Complete Mage feat, caster level 18, 4 spells per day from 0-6th level Sorc/Wiz spells, 3 from 7th-8th, and 2 from 9th-level.

Notable difference aside from the decreased spellcasting is that you lose out on one iterative attack (a significant drawback), you're sub-optimal one third of the game, and oh, you don't have 9 additional Fighter feats (which at this point could have been Toughness for all I care since you have crappy hit points).

2) Wiz 5/Ftr 5/Eldritch Knight 10:

5d4 plus 5d10 plus 10d6 hit points (average 75), +17 BAB, +12 Fort, +5 Ref, +9 Will, 4 Fighter bonus feats, 1 Metamagic/Item Creation/Complete Mage feat, caster level 13, access to one 7th-level spell. BAB loss neglible, relatively lower hp (but arguably workable), sub-optimal in the tanking/melee department for the first half of the game, and you lose out on a lot of spells and feats.

Either option #1 or #2 doesn't close close to the benefits of a gestalt character. #2 comes close to a Ftr 20 but he doesn't have the innate toughness of a straight Ftr although he could theoretically get a significant boost in offense and defense thanks to spells. #2 doesn't come close to a straight out Wiz 20. #1 isn't close to a Ftr 20 (especially when he loses out on that extra attack) but is "tougher" than a Wiz 20. The same can't be said for his spellcasting however (fewer spells, lower caster level).

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I think what you're looking for is synergy.

Yeah, that's exactly what the rules mean when they say associated levels. Fighter 10/Paladin 10 is going to be much closer in power to Fighter 20 or Paladin 20 than Fighter 10/Wizard 10.

I also stated that it is only an extrapolation, and I agree that it is one that can be prone to abuse. But it is a part of the rules, and I think it does help us at least gain perspective. Nobody is ever going to be able to use it as an exact science, but as you see how I've used it is as a guide for perspective.

 

[Pazu]

The chief benefit of the ascetic mage is swapping out Wisdom bonus to AC for Charisma. And AC is the least of the enlightened fist's problems (with mage armor or greater mage armor, he actually gets a pretty sweet deal there). It's a crippler to have to cough up those six levels of sorcerer, and hopefully the designers have figured that out.

Is it six levels of sorcerer? I thought enlightened fist required caster level 3rd...?

 

[Felon]

Is it six levels of sorcerer? I thought enlightened fist required caster level 3rd...?

Whoa! Outstanding catch! You have made my day, sir.

I may very well have to revise my assessment...almost certainly, in fact.

 

[Felon]

There is the d8 hit points (which is more than what the EK gives you) and Arcane Fist/Hold Ray for the same reasons you want Channel Spell from the Spellsword. Overall a more competent unarmored, unarmed monk-type character. The penalties to hit requires an investment in Arcane Strike but otherwise so-so. If you want something funky (since it's only now I'm actually checking its prerequisites), mix-and-match it with Warlock: ranged (Hadoken!) and melee (Shoryuken!) capabilities.

See above. Caster level 3rd is a world of improvement over access to 3rd-level spells. My world is shattered.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I ignored StGabe right at the start, making this thread better for me

I'm going to point out that this could be interpreted as insulting since it was the only thing in your post. Please, if you don't care for another poster, comment on it privately. I haven't necessarily agreed with you but give you the simple respect that you are entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't slam you.

 

[Felon]

Yeah, play nice.