Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Maxperson]

"Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." Which contributes to he theory that the eagles were either pretty much autonomous into their actions and/or limited in their capability.

This portion is about the only portion I really disagree with, though I'm not so sure he was right about the armies of elder days being useless. Sauron isn't Morgoth, even with the ring.

Here, though, you say that the eagles being willing to carry Gandalf implies autonomy. I disagree. We know that they are the servants of Manwe, that does more than imply that they are not autonomous, it pretty much states it outright. When given instructions, they follow them. They were "sent", not "asked" to bear tiding, which also implies no autonomy. However, that doesn't mean that they can't do things outside of instruction that also don't violate other instructions. In this case it means that carrying Gandalf to that destination was okay, but it doesn't mean that carrying the group close to or into Mordor is okay.

 

[Guest 6801328]

EDIT: i think the movies might have altered our perceptions a bit with their influence .

I hope you're speaking for yourself there. The movies are abominations.

Otherwise I'm not arguing with your analysis. The only idea I'm disagreeing with is that "Sauron would have easily spotted the Eagles and shot them out of the sky with his weather control magic before they reached Mt. Doom." Maybe he would have, but it's a much smaller maybe than "Maybe hobbits walking into Mordor will get captured by orcs." The latter is more of an "almost definitely".

 

[Maxperson]

Greatest Hero? Gollem!
He had to endure all the same as Frodo and Sam, but didn't complain as much.
And more so, he gave his life for his goal in the most noblest of ways.

Dying by accident after you have just assaulted and caused grievous bodily injury to someone, and then stolen his ring is the most noble of ways to die?

 

[Maxperson]

I hope you're speaking for yourself there. The movies are abominations.

Otherwise I'm not arguing with your analysis. The only idea I'm disagreeing with is that "Sauron would have easily spotted the Eagles and shot them out of the sky with his weather control magic before they reached Mt. Doom." Maybe he would have, but it's a much smaller maybe than "Maybe hobbits walking into Mordor will get captured by orcs." The latter is more of an "almost definitely".

He doesn't need the weather. If The Eye's gaze so much as falls directly on the ring bearer, he's royally screwed. The rest are just screwed. Sauron had great power and weather control is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[C-F-K]

Dying by accident after you have just assaulted and caused grievous bodily injury to someone, and then stolen his ring is the most noble of ways to die?

Frodo could never had parted with the ring if he wanted to. He had to much struggles with the power of the ring.
If gollem didn't do what he did, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed and who knows what would have happened then.

So no, not noble in the romantic "hero-slays-dragon" way, but in the unintentionally saving middle-earth way.

 

[Maxperson]

Frodo could never had parted with the ring if he wanted to. He had to much struggles with the power of the ring.
If gollem didn't do what he did, the ring wouldn't have been destroyed and who knows what would have happened then.

I agree.

So no, not noble in the romantic "hero-slays-dragon" way, but in the unintentionally saving middle-earth way.

That's what noble means, though. Dying a selfish, accidental death isn't noble in any sense of the word. Being necessary for the well being of Middle Earth doesn't make it into a noble act.

 

[steeldragons]

...nevermind...

Don't mind me. S'not worth it. I'll just be rolling my eyes as I unsubscribe.

Carry on.

 

[Guest 6801328]

He doesn't need the weather. If The Eye's gaze so much as falls directly on the ring bearer, he's royally screwed. The rest are just screwed. Sauron had great power and weather control is just the tip of the iceberg.

I hear he can also shoot laser beams out of his eyes.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

I hope you're speaking for yourself there. The movies are abominations.

At least partially myself, yes. In example until last night i was almost sure that the wizards (namely Gandalf) could summon the Eagles ... somehow...... Only after re reading the chapters (before quoting) did it all get back to me. I find it funny how i remember Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, The lost tales and other stuff better then the Lord of the Rings itself.

The only idea I'm disagreeing with is that "Sauron would have easily spotted the Eagles and shot them out of the sky with his weather control magic before they reached Mt. Doom."

Oh, no argue from me there. I have no idea how or what would have been used to either spot them or stop them and i am not a great fan of attributing "magical" abilities to solving Middle Earth "problems". But Whatever reason, even Elrond thought more subtle approach was needed.

Here, though, you say that the eagles being willing to carry Gandalf implies autonomy. I disagree. We know that they are the servants of Manwe, that does more than imply that they are not autonomous, it pretty much states it outright. When given instructions, they follow them. They were "sent", not "asked" to bear tiding, which also implies no autonomy. However, that doesn't mean that they can't do things outside of instruction that also don't violate other instructions. In this case it means that carrying Gandalf to that destination was okay, but it doesn't mean that carrying the group close to or into Mordor is okay.

I think i understand what you are trying to say, but what i meant by autonomy, i meant most of all autonomy from whatever power or chain of command there was among the free peoples of Middle Earth. I.E. even Radagast was a "friend" with the birds, not their master. In the end they probably called their own shots (the will of the Powers in the West excluded). When they arrived in force at the Black Gate, it was either on their own volition or under direct intervention of Manwe (or even Iluvatar).

 

[TwoSix]

I hope you're speaking for yourself there. The movies are abominations.

Sometimes I think I browse geek forums just to get the fiery insights you can only find on geek forums.