Was I unfair?

[The_Gneech]

What's so bad about bard/sorcerer? They're both Cha-based arcane spellcasters; the combination loses some firepower, but gains some flexibility.

-The Gneech

 

[Olaf the Stout]

What I don't understand is that you told them it was going to be mainly roleplaying based but then criticised them on their character choices. Huh??? It seems (to me) like you are a little confused as to what sort of game you are trying to run.

Olaf the Stout

 

[LostSoul]

Well, they know they made a lot of mistakes, and not becasue I told them, either. One of them thought they could take the monster, and was mistaken. On that, I wonder why he thought he could take the monster aside from the fact that they're playing D&D. Yes yes I know, D&D is heroic and bla bla bla but that's metagaming, not roleplaying, and its hard for me to really see how that gives them an excuse to make bad decisions if other characters they've played in other universes have never had to deal with consequences.

Heh. "Metagaming not roleplaying." I would consider the whole thing role-playing; it's just not acting in-character. There are a lot of different styles out there. (I'm fine with what you just described; I'd find it strange not to play like that. But that's just me, it's not for everyone.)

Anyways, it sounds like everything is cool. Making mistakes sucks sometimes, but if there aren't any consequences, what's the fun in that? I'd probably still talk to the players about it, but then I talk too much.

It strikes me that this whole experience could deepen the feeling of horror that you're trying to get across. You could have them make up a bunch of 1st-level characters that are somehow tied to the first group (either the PCs or the NPCs who died) and they have to go and kill that monster. If they're prepared for the fight, knowing what the monster is capable of, I bet they could kill it. (Oh, but that might be too much metagaming... oh well. Maybe you could handwave that, give them some information from a Speak with Dead or something. Heh! You see how styles differ? )

 

[tylermalan]

Well, the main, common thing that most have been echoing throughout this thread is that me and my players were likely on different wavelengths, which I can now agree with. For our next 1st session, I'll defninitely make it more clear. As for the rules, I'm really not worried about this game going on for long enough for the barbarian to have 150 HP, so that's not much a concern of mine either.

 

[tylermalan]

You've got the entire campaign pre-written before the players even created characters?

Man, Amtrak could use some lessons ...

Quiet you!

 

[tylermalan]

Oh yeah, and the rules I've adapted from Ravenloft a bit, so all should be well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

.....were you unfair?

....I dunno, did you give them anything to do besides "explore the dungeon"? Or reason to think that this was beyond their capabilities?

You mean the party went down into the dungeon....in a game called dungeons and dragons?

Horror isn't in shock and awe and hopelessness (or at least, not JUST in that). Your party could be better served with NPC monster-meat ("I'm the greatest warrior in the city, I could beat any of you, let ME go down and find out what's down there......*jump*......OH GOD MY FACE!"), by a slow building horror (you don't MEET the monster, even if you're looking for it, until it's thematically approrpiate...instead, let the horror build, mention what they sense in the sewers, how they don't find the critter, maybe they get hopelessly lost and their challenge is to find a way out before the beast finds them...), and by not having to be psychic and read what you want them to do.

You weren't unfair, but you weren't running a very effective horror game, IMHO.

 

[Nyeshet]

So what do they do? They make the worst. Party. Ever.

All of them are level 3:
Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Cleric 2
Human Bard 1/Sorcerer 2 (what was he thinking?)
Human Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1
Human Paladin 3

Okay, I'll admit they made some major mistakes, however, I do not see how their party is the 'worst ever.'

Half-Orc Barbarian 1 / Cleric 2

- sounds like he was a typical HO Bbn who was taken in by the shaman /priest of the tribe, beginning his rise towards becoming the next priest of the tribe. Or perhaps after his tribe was slain he was captured / raised by a cleric or paladin (depending on the religion). His bbn levels reflects his past (it is his favored class, after all, and well suited to his racial traits), while his clr levels reflect his future. Also, the bbn levels grant rage for combat, more skills - including potentially more useful skills, and better hp for starting out. Perhaps the player was also aiming towards a particular prc? Even without that, he could do quite well on his current path. One level in bbn will not prevent him from reaching 9th level spells, after all. It merely puts him behind by a level in casting.

Human Bard 1/Sorcerer 2

- I, personally, would probably consider this route if I were playing a Sorcerer. I gain a massive boatload of skill points to start out with along with Bardic Lore and several potential Bardic songs - such as Inspire Courage and Countersong. I gain a few more lower level spells per day - which can be useful at lower levels, especially as the bard has access to arcane healing spells. His charisma affects both classes, granting increased 1st level spells to both. The sorcerer levels suggest that he was a bard that then continued along a more arcane path rather than a bardic one. If a few skill points were well placed, it could allow for numerous knowledge checks that might normally not be possible. While at mid to high levels it will not be useful, up till level 5-10 it could be useful to occationally gain a bit more knowledge about something.

Human Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1

- sounds like he was aiming towards a gish type character - such as the Duskblade from PHB2 or any of a number of PrCs that patch multiclassing focused upon mixing combative (such as fighter) with magic (such as sorcerer). At present he should be a moderately skilled fighter with some possibly useful magic tricks to pull on his foes (such as grease in front of them, true strike upon himself, etc).

Human Paladin 3

- as the only single class character, I don't see why you would consider this a poor class selection. He is on par for his level in terms of power, and while his alignment restricts his actions, his abilities aid him in working against his foes and with his team.


Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Cleric 2
Human Bard 1/Sorcerer 2
Human Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1
Human Paladin 3

Sounds like a combat focused team with more than a little magic to back it up. However, the magic is dispersed and of low level (due to either multiclassing, or - for the paladin - delayed gaining of spells). Each, individually, looks like they were ready for anything except - possibly - traps. Together, they could have been a force to consider. However, they seemed to 1) not be working as a team, and 2) overlooking somethings in their rush to get into the action as soon as possible. Their character builds - other than lacking a rogue or equivalent to deal with traps - are solid and not all that poorly set up. They are not powergamers, but neither are they poor builds.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Were you unfair? It doesn't sound like it. However, it sounslike information wasn't traveling back and forth between all parties.

A shas been hinted, there are alot of different horror types so saying "horror" doesn't mean the same thing to all people (I know you said you were using Ravenloft stuff earlier - but please stay with me for a minute).

Jason/Freddy is a Slasher/Dead Teenager type of horror.
Buffy is action in a horror setting.
Sixth Sense is drama in a horror setting.
Dracula is Gothic Horror.

To me a "horror game" will likely be one of the last three depending on the system. With it being D&D it will either be Buffy or Dracula (Ravenloft). If I'm told that it will be heavy roleplaying I would be expecting it all to be heavy in atmosphere.

When presented with the entrance to the sewers I would be thinking "sweet - tons of listen and spot checks where maybe only five really mean anything but I have no idea which five they will be" along with plenty of descriptions of screams, shadows and echoes of something moving. I'd be the first to jump down that sewer hole.

Now, the players made mistakes (Bwah? Not taking the paladin in a horror setting? What?!) but players are also not mind readers. Trust me on this as a player - there are times I'm staring at my DM dumbfounded trying to figure out what the heck he's talking about. Sometimes the DM sets up a huge flashing neon sign with a great big arrow pointing the way only to find that the players are looking in the opposet direction.

Or worse, seeing the sign reflected in a puddle of water and following the reflection and not the sign itself. ("The symbol is linked to the town blacksmith? Obviously the blacksmith is behind whatever plot this vile creature is part of. We'll take care of the mastermind after we dispatch this loathsome beast!")

Sometimes, as a player, I need to be slapped upside the head and shown the actul sign. Looking at this situation with perfect 20/20 vision (hindsight perscription) as a player I wouldn't mind the following:

Have the sheriff type character not say 'ask me if you want' but directly offer advice if the players don't ask. "Hey, I recognise that symbol, I think Bob the Creepy Blacksmith has that behind his counter. There was this one time that..."

Have the Professionals go down first and get slaughtered. After all, the PCs are no more than hired thugs at this point, right? Have the PCs 'instructed' to do leg work while the guard are busy being slaughtered. At the start of the campaign I don't mind a little extra railroad track if it makes sure I know that the campaign is Ravenloft and not Buffy.

Oh, look. A cave in, how convenient. Or if the PCs are spoiling for a fight toss a couple of Cultists (or eqivalent) in their way. Sure, this means changing the environment for the PCs a bit, but it is also ensuring that the game continues and it is giving the players what they want (a fight) while letting the critter get away for a later combat. Again, railroading but this is Ravenloft and not Buffy.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Good advice, Jedi_Solo!