Was I wrong?

[Nyaricus]

Listen to Design and Development:

"Ah Yes. And Then There Was Trip.

Trip: This is way too good as written. A 2nd level fighter with a 16 Strength, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip using a sickle needs to make a touch attack (ultra simple) and then has a +7 bonus on his opposed trip roll. This character will have most every Large or smaller CR 1-4 opponent on the ground battle after battle.

Even worse, a 10th level NPC fighter with average stats (Str and Dex 14) has no better chance to avoid being tripped than a CR 1 orc. This whole situation becomes absolutely silly when the accursed spiked chain is brought into it.

Whack!: Tripping became such a problem in my games (all my players would ever do was trip) that I changed the rule to make tripping a single roll in which each participant rolls d20 adding Str (or Dex) and Base Attack Bonus. The +4 from Improved Trip still applies—which makes the tactic worthwhile—but no longer overwhelming.
-- Andres"

That was from the Proud Nails Feedback and is a good solution to trip, and doesn't make it so unfair (as it is now). Also, allow me to look soemthing up...

Okay, Jotunbrund is allowed only from humans which are of Damaran or Illuskan heritage (RoF, p. 166). Their regions are:
Damaran: Aglanrond, Damara, Great Dale, Impiltur, Moonsea, Narfell, Thesk, Vaasa, the Vast.
Illuskan: High Forest, Moonsea Isles, Nelanther Isles, the North, Silverymoon, Waterdeep.

Illmater is worshipped mainly in the following countries: Calimshan, Damara, Impiltur, Tethyr (FRCS, p. 23).

So, is the character a Damaran Human from Damara or Impiltur? Are you even campaigning in thsoe areas? Personally, I think +21 to trip is a bit ridiculous (and I am a min-maxer ) and that he needs a pretty good background to have a spiked chain.

I know those are one of the items I've disallowed in my games. Not because it's broken (it just barely isa, according to a weapon calculator I've seen) but because it's dumb. And no one likes dumb.

 

[arscott]

I'd just nix the Jotunbrud feat. Powerful build is an important enough ability that it usually entails a +1 level adjustment. If he wants have giant blood, have him be a half-giant from the XPH. Consider that it gives you half of the benifits of improved trip, improved disarm, improved grapple, improved sunder, improved overrun and improved bull rush. (Being large proper gives you the other half.)

Despite general ranting, the spiked chain isn't really any more overpowered than the flail. sure it's got reach, but that's less important than you might think. And remember that powerful build and the like increase everything except space and reach.

 

[Guardsmith]

Thanks!

Thanks to everyone who has posted comments and suggestions.

Here are my responses to some of your questions:

Do you allow all the listed sourcebooks in your normal games?

Yes, but I am going to severly limit them in my future games. I like giving my players options when making characters, but most of the time, they end up using the new material in ways I didn't anticipate.

What caused the TPK? What was the original party mix?

The original party mix was P1 was a Druid, P2 was a Fighter, and P3 was a Scout. I was running them thorugh a scaled down version of The Sons of Gruumish (FR adventure) and they were killed in the climactic battle with the BBEG at the end.

Personally I'm of the opinion that allowing players to cherry-pick feats & spells from every supplement under the sun is going to cause problems, unless ALL of your players do it (and unless you do the same for the NPCs, depending on how challenging a game you want to run). Make it clear that anything that's not in the PHB is optional and subject to DM approval. And don't be afraid to say "no", or to mess around with something that you think is going to be problematic.

This is usually my attitude as well; all non PHB feats have to be cleared with me first. But I'm not a min-maxer and I don't usually think like one. Therefor, when I'm shown a feat (or something else), I don't usually see all the ways to abuse it.

So, is the character a Damaran Human from Damara or Impiltur? Are you even campaigning in thsoe areas?

No, he's Illuskan human from The North, and we're campaigning in the Silver Marches. I haven't been very strict about regions and dieties before this, but that's going to change.

Thanks again for the replies so far; you've been very helpful.

Dan

 

[Qwillion]

Nyaricus
it was +21 to disarm not trip

His trip is not likely as high though I agree with adding bab rule.

 

[Nyaricus]

No, he's Illuskan human from The North, and we're campaigning in the Silver Marches. I haven't been very strict about regions and dieties before this, but that's going to change.

Ah, ic. I personally cross-reference those tabels extensively when helping my players make their characters - it helps them (the characters) make more sense and fit in with the game world better. Also, it helps to get rid of the oddball weapons from the PHB, like the double weapons (polearms and quaterstaffs asides) and the spiked chain.

Thanks again for the replies so far; you've been very helpful.

No problem

Qwillion, nice catch. I was already thinking about looking in my FR books and less about that, but I really like that rule and saw spiked chains and thus wires got crossed.

Oh well, every time I can spread that patch to tripping is another time I might help out in someones game

 

[BadMojo]

That's going to get old fast...

I'd probably tempt him into abandoning that build for a vow of poverty monk....

I agree. The constant disarm checks are going to slow combat to a crawl.

It really sounds like this player cheezed out the character as much as possible, which is fine if that's the kind of game you're in to. Problem is, it doesn't really sound like the type of game you want to run.

Personally, I'd have him turn the powergamer thing down a few notches.

 

[Numion]

After a recent TPK, my group (3 players and me, the DM) contemplated what we wanted to do next. One player found the Justiciar of Tyr (FR god of justice and such) and wanted to try it. After doing some research, I found that Tyr and his church often work alongside two other churches, those of Torm (god of duty and loyalty) and Ilmater (god of endurance and martyrdom). So, I thought “three gods, three characters, this could fit nicely” and said this to the players regarding characters:

I wouldn't let one players choice dictate other players possible character classes. I might've suggested that trinity of churches for a campaign idea, but I don't think my players would've gone for it. That would've been okay with me.

The reason why I think this way is that every other aspect in the game world, outside of the player characters, is controlled by me, the DM. Players only have their characters, I have everything else. So I will let them have their corner (however central it actually might be) 100% to themselves.

That's the principle - it doesn't mean I allow spiked chain wielders or any number of other overpowered aspects into my game. I mean, I give the boundaries, and try to keep them reasonably large and let them decide within those. Your setup seems too tight, IMO. Banning a weapon is OK, no doubt, but forcing a religion is a bit too much especially since it stems from just one players preference.

IMHO.

 

[Ranger REG]

So, my question to you guys is this … given the situation, would I have been a cruel and heartless DM to tell him that he couldn’t play this character, or would that be stifling a player’s freedom to play the kind of character they want to play?

Once again, I’m new to asking for other opinions like this, so please be gentle.

*Scoffs*

Cruel and heartless? Ha! You're not in my league yet, greenhorn. I make players and PCs cry.

That depends on how well a DM you are. Some are very liberal enough to accept new rules material far beyond what he owns in his collection of books. Some are very strict and must give approval first.

It's your campaign. You set the boundaries on what goes and what not.

 

[loki44]

Here are my responses to some of your questions:
The original party mix was P1 was a Druid, P2 was a Fighter, and P3 was a Scout. I was running them thorugh a scaled down version of The Sons of Gruumish (FR adventure) and they were killed in the climactic battle with the BBEG at the end.

So, is this an entirely new campaign, or does it pick up directly after the TPK?

 

[Stalker0]

Here's my take.

Its not how strong the character seems to your normal sense of character power...how does he stack up to the other characters playing?

As a DM you can always adjust the challenge if a group of adventurers is stronger than the baseline. However, it can be exceedingly difficult to do so if one player is a god and the rest are his peons.

You mentioned you have a knight and a cleric in the group, so your all playing fighter types. Does the other guy just plain outfight the other classes? If so.....

The guy may be angry if you nerf him, but your other players will secretly thank you and everyone will have more fun in the long run.