Was Thac0 really that bad?

[Nebulous]

Thaco Harlottable

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

May I suggest a name for your first 5e character?

Hah!

 

[Aramax]

flumphs,

Thac0, the number you need to hit AC 0. Your opponent has an AC from 10 to -10. Subtract or add that AC to yer Thac0. Roll a dice and get that number or over and you win.

That's not that evil is it? Why do people hate it so?

I hope I remembered it right.
foolish_mortals

Yes it was!

 

[Thac0 the Barbarian]

I admit to having a soft spot in heart for Thac0. Unfortunately, that soft spot lowers my armor class from 6 to 8 (no armor but very dexterous at baseline) meaning a fourth level cleric with a strength of 17 would require a (18-1-8 ) 9 to hit me. Sent via forum runner and calculated from memory

 

[Nellisir]

I hope I remembered it right.

I DMed 2nd Edition for years. And every damned time I had to roll thac0, those words went through my head.

The first time I read about ascending AC (in a pdf, or word doc, or something, called Arcana Unearthed, or Unearthed Arcana, I forget which), I switched.

 

[Ulrick]

"THAC0 kept the riff-raff out!"

 

[Fanaelialae]

I never had a problem grasping it, but teaching it to some people (sometimes even rather intelligent people) could be like pulling teeth. It was a bit counter-intuitive.

I think it would have worked better if AC 0 were the default (in other words, 0 replaced 10). Then AC could have ascended for better AC, or descended for worse AC (which I find people tend to find more intuitive).

For example, assume Joe the Fighter has a Thac0 of 8. He always knows that he needs to roll an 8 or higher to hit AC 0.

He catches an orc with it's pants down, and therefore needs to hit an AC of -2. Subtracting 2 from 8 we find that Joe needs to roll 6 or higher to hit the orc.

Then the heavily armored BBEG walks in with a hefty AC of +7. Adding seven to Joe's Thac0 of 8, it's apparent that Joe needs a 15 or higher to hit this guy.

I expect that would have been much easier to both teach and learn, for most everyone, and it's still (IMO) at least as elegant.

 

[Thagdal]

THAC0 was probably the best solution that could be adopted when you take into account all of TSR's design goals for 2nd Edition:
1. Streamline the game, and
2. Keep all the 1st Edition material as 'plug in and play' friendly as possible.

The designers seriously considered moving to the ascending AC model. The main reason they went with the THAC0/descending AC approach is that they didn't want to invalidate all the stuff that had been printed using descending AC.

I'm always puzzled when people say Thac0 started with 2e. Maybe someone can clarify for me, but my 1st ed DMG with the monsters in the back (appendix E) has their To hit A.C 0 listed.

 

[Number48]

It had a number to hit armor class 0, but there wasn't the formula-based progression of 2E. In 1E, if a character attacked, it was compared against a table in the book. Every. Single. Time. Or at least until you had it memorized.

 

[M.L. Martin]

I'm always puzzled when people say Thac0 started with 2e. Maybe someone can clarify for me, but my 1st ed DMG with the monsters in the back (appendix E) has their To hit A.C 0 listed.

True, it didn't start with 2E--but 2E is when a) it became the standard instead of a shortcut/alternative to using the combat matrices, and b) TSR would have had the first real opportunity to change to the ascending AC approach or something different.